“He Looked A Lot Like The Old One…” The Second Life & Grand Delusion of Roy Thomas

Roy Thomas is ubiquitous, seemingly everywhere and far more visible in the world of comics than he has been in decades, partially due to the rise of general interest in the Marvel Universe itself and partially due to the machinations of his omnipresent manager, John Cimino.

Thomas’s presence and billing as Stan Lee’s protege and chosen heir at conventions around the country are a somewhat more recent development in the overall trajectory in Thomas’s life as well as the increased focus on Thomas as a creator of significant standing.

For nearly two decades Thomas seemed content to serve out his life as the Editor of Alter Ego and be cited as a regular contributor to documentaries, collected editions and the odd comic book story, usually a back-up piece for an anniversary issue. He had cemented his place as a historical figure more known in collective memory and as a footnote, a reference to past storylines, the guy who wrote the Avengers when that one character was introduced, and so forth- and then, around the time that his one-time mentor died- everything began to change.

Once Lee died, Roy Thomas began to tilt his presentation just a bit. Was it a combination of specific factors going into motion like the respectable Hollywood Reporter beginning to regularly seek out Thomas for replies and rebuttals to slowly building pushback against the Lee legend?

Or was it canny awareness on part of his manager that, the lucrative Stan position on the profitable convention circuit, itself populated by thousands of people weaned on MCU films could reasonably be filled by Roy- if he were presented to the masses as the next best thing? Was it the publisher Taschen, commissioning Roy to write “the” book on Lee that gave him a lightbulb over his head?

Whatever it was, Roy Thomas legitimately changed his stance and outlook and contradicted his past statements by seriously beginning to play up his status as a PROLIFIC CREATOR. This is quite the departure from the man who once said- more than once- that he purposely didn’t create characters if he could help it, since he “knew he wouldn’t own” any of them. So, we’ve entered a new stage in Thomas’s career. Where before he was almost lost in the shuffle of Marvel’s history- overshadowed by the looming shadow of Stan Lee himself and then outshone completely by the writers and editors that followed him- in these past five years, Thomas has become a draw. Like Lee he shows no signs of slowing down any time soon. And like Lee, his claims of being a creator are worth examining.

In the past four years, Thomas has produced three separate prints of himself surrounded by various Marvel characters to sell at conventions- I believe this to be misleading to the consumer and immoral to a point; these prints do not list co-creator or “contributing editor” status- they are blatantly designed to give the impression that all of these characters sprung forth from the fertile imagination of The Rascally One himself. It’s wrong.

While people can debate what constitutes “creator” I will state that I, personally, do not believe that editors giving instructions to create a ‘sort’ of character warrants them any status or position to get in on creatorship claims. If so, then I again insist on using what I’ve called The Goodman Rule: if an Editor instructs you to create a SORT of character- that Editor now automatically grants them co-creator status.

Thomas also, refreshingly, gives exact and minute details about nearly everything involving his input on characters credited to him- and, in every case, he’s just liberally borrowing and repositioning existing elements, only changing them ever so slightly or not at all. It’s entirely possible that Thomas is not malicious or conscious of this and really believes he’s “creating” things- and many fine creators have borrowed from existing properties in the past to create something new but even they inverted the premise or put a new spin on that something.

Longtime fans might say, “Oh, creators do that all the time!”- yes, yes but have they ever just blatantly rewritten existing concepts as much as the unimaginative Thomas has? His entire body of work is a love letter to homage and fanfic which is geared towards obsessive hardcore fans like himself.

Thomas also evolved his habit begun in the Eighties of prolifically writing the fan press whenever he’d felt slighted in a review or a column; today he simply has a message sent to Bleeding Cool or Comic Book Resources courtesy of Cimino (whom he insists be mentioned an average of 2-3 times within each article), lambasting and calling out publishers for not honoring creators like himself, even having the audacity to cite Bill Finger and Jerry Siegel and then imply solidarity with them while frequently and endlessly denying Jack Kirby any semblance of respect or credit when it comes to credit.

Thomas once said about Kirby and Neal Adams both that they suffered from “delusions of grandeur”- a staggering statement from the pompous and obtuse Thomas who has historically lacked awareness and social skills. Today we’re going to look at some of the more prominent “creations” of Thomas, helpfully displayed on the multiple prints available for sale at his convention booth and look at just how much “creating” he actually did.

HIM/ADAM WARLOCK (actually created by Jack Kirby)

I’ve always been surprised that simply giving a new costume to an existing, fleshed out character with a specific origin such as Kirby’s HIM constitutes “creating” a character. While it’s true that HIM was given the catchy name “Adam Warlock”, Thomas himself said it was Gil Kane’s idea to name HIM after the Biblical first man so even that isn’t Thomas’s idea. Thomas simply retooled an existing character, based on his love for the then-contemporary ‘Jesus Christ Superstar‘ concept album (an album I admit still holds up), and admits that the only contribution he made to Gil Kane’s costume design was to add the Golden Age Captain Marvel’s thunderbolt.

In 1984, Spider-Man received his famous black suit which was an idea submitted by a fan and then retooled by artist Mike Zeck. Is Mike Zeck considered a co-creator of Spider-Man now? Or Venom for that matter? Adding to the mythos and development of a character does not constitute creating anything, plain and simple.

Ultron (Adam Link/Machino)

Thomas claims he gave Buscema a 1950s’ Captain Video comic featuring a killer robot named Machino which already established that Ultron wasn’t a genuine original idea, but he’s also a blatant copy of Eando Binder’s famous ADAM LINK character- a robot that gains self-awareness who had already been adapted twice in comics, appeared prolifically in pulp magazines and sci-fi paperbacks and even had a television adaption- Thomas would have been keenly aware of this character.

• “I’d based my idea of [Ultron] on a villain-robot called Mechano (I think that’s the spelling) in an issue of Captain Video… and he looks a lot like Ultron so I must’ve sent a picture of him to John. Later, when Sal Buscema drew the climax of his second appearance, I sent Sal a 1950s issue of the ME comic The Avenger with its robot, for the body.” – Roy Thomas

Contrast this with reports of Thomas just giving pages of existing Conan stories to artists when they asked for a script. Thomas is a terminal borrower, ideas do not, cannot flow through his mind. He is a consumer and not a creator.

Doc Sampson (Captain Tootsie)

Doc Sampson is a blatant homage to the Golden Age characters Doc Strange and Captain Tootsie; Thomas even admitted to just giving copies of the Captain Tootsie comic strip (notice a pattern?) to artist Herb Trimpe as a guide to the character. And don’t knock ol’ Cap Tootsie- he was a prominent advertising character who appeared in numerous comic strips illustrated by the great C.C. Beck.

MAN-THING (Golden Age character THE HEAP)

A silent and shambling swamp creature with a snout who only had dim memories of his former existence as a man, The Heap was a long lasting and popular character throughout the forties and fifties, yet Thomas claims credit for being a co-creator of the seventies Man-Thing. Even Thomas says Man-Thing was Lee’s name and the concept of his origin was Lee’s idea. So again, using Thomas’s own logic– why isn’t Stan Lee a co-creator of Man-Thing?? Gerry Conway, not Thomas, even wrote the initial story.

THE VISION (Golden Age Character created by Jack Kirby)

Thomas simply wanted to bring back the Golden Age Vision initially done by Jack Kirby but says Stan Lee wouldn’t allow it and instead gave Thomas the instruction that the new Vision be an android– an important component of this version of the character, I think most would agree- so again, why isn’t Stan Lee co-creator of the Vision? Isn’t that the same logic that Thomas adopts to claim that he’s a co-creator of Wolverine? (Thomas: “I said, make him a Canadian!“) Thomas again freely and helpfully admits that he told Buscema to copy the costume of the Golden Age Fawcett character Spy Smasher and that it was Buscema’s idea to add the jewel on the forehead- a design which took on some degree of prominence in the storylines of the later Avengers films.

• “He didn’t care what I did as long as it was an android, so I made up an android and called him The Vision, and he looked a lot like the old one.” – Roy Thomas

KILLRAVEN (accounts differ from Neal Adams/Golden Age Homage)

Per Thomas, this character was inspired by Golden Age character Hunt Bowman who had a similar visual style and who fought in a far-off future the same way Killraven did. However, Neal Adams later said that he had conceived the character as the son of a “Doc Savage” type character so he can’t be discounted as contributing. Also, worth noting that Gerry Conway and Marv Wolfman- not Roy Thomas- wrote the initial Killraven stories.

RED SONJA (Robert E. Howard character Red Sonya)

When adapting the Howard stories for Conan, Thomas freely adapted the existing character Red Sonya of Rogatino. This does not make Thomas the creator of Red Sonja any more than it makes him the creator of Conan.

3-D MAN (Captain 3-D & Crimebuster)

Thomas admits he simply took the Golden Age Daredevil costume and changed the colors to red and green… and then gave 3-D Man the same exact name as Golden Age character Crimebuster (Chuck Chandler).. and then “borrowed” (Thomas’s term) a couple of elements from Simon & Kirby’s Captain 3-D which predates 3-D Man by several years. Wow… what a creator.

IRON FIST (Simon & Kirby’s Bullseye, Amazing Man)

Thomas says he saw a Kung Fu film in the Seventies which talked about a “ceremony of the Iron Fist” so the name wasn’t even an original conception. Thomas came up with the dragon brand on Iron Fist’s chest which he admits was taken from Kirby’s BULLSEYE character of the Fifties, and then took the complete origin of Bill Everett’s Golden Age character Amazing Man for Iron Fist. It really is as if Thomas is a rearranger instead of a creator.

THUNDRA (Big Barda)

Thomas blatantly admitted this is a riff or “homage” to Jack Kirby’s Big Barda but with a massively sexist slant that completely misunderstands the character and her strengths. Thomas also admitted the name comes from the Golden Age jungle hero Th’unda, because Roy Thomas literally has no new ideas.

MORBIUS (COUNT DRAGORIN)

This one is especially blatant as it involved a documented incident which led to outright theft from Jack Kirby and led to inker Vince Colletta being fired from his assignment inking Kirby’s Fourth World books.

Colletta dropped by the Marvel offices with original Kirby art and, naturally, the Marvel Bullpen was curious to see what Kirby was doing at the distinguished competition. Photocopies were made and when Kirby discovered this- Marie Severin wrote him a fan letter- Kirby had Colletta terminated from his books’, something Kirby was usually hesitant to do. Count Dragorin is Kirby’s white-skinned, science-based vampire. His appearance in Jimmy Olsen predates the creation of Morbius, which Thomas and Gil Kane hurriedly created after the original Kirby art came to their attention.

BROTHER VOODOO (Stan Lee idea)

Per Thomas’s account, here is why he claims credit for Brother Voodoo: Stan Lee tells him he wants a voodoo character and Thomas suggests “Doctor Voodoo“. Lee rejects it and Lee himself comes up with “Brother Voodoo“. And that’s IT. Because Roy suggests a rejected name- itself using a term Lee just gave him- Thomas considers himself a co-creator.

All Thomas does is take Lee’s directive and then chooses who to assign it to based on availability, admitting that Len Wein did all of the “heavy lifting” in actually fleshing out and creating a whole character. An Editor is not a creator because they choose who to assign the concept to.

CAROL DANVERS

A female head of security that wasn’t even named in the first story and existed as a supporting character in early Captain Marvel stories, other writers later made her Ms. Marvel, Binary, Warbird and finally Captain Marvel… and Roy Thomas had nothing to do with any of those decisions.

WHAT IF? (DC’s “Imaginary Stories”, etc.)

Peter Sanderson said: “But if you ask Roy, I think he will tell you he got the idea from Gardner Fox’s story “The Strange Death of Batman,” in which Fox talks about his “What If” room in which he imagined alternate endings to his stories.”

DC Comics was also famous for pioneering the alternate reality take in their stories as early as the forties with their “An Imaginary Story” series which was long running and introduced concepts that still are in use today. Thomas also admits that “What If?” as a title was taken from Stan Lee.

WOLVERINE (FOOM Entry/Dave Cockrum)

We’ve documented how Thomas stole much of this from a fan who submitted his “Wolverine” character (complete with “bionic skeleton“) into FOOM and simply gave instructions for a “Canadian” character who was not yet even a mutant to Len Wein.

Thomas wrote in 2018 the leading “Len sometimes forgot that I’d given him those latter two qualities for the character (fierce and short tempered), but that in no way makes Len less of the co-creator of Wolverine.” Thomas is famous for his retcons of comics history and we see him continuing in the 21st century to do it with REAL history as well. Roy Thomas is as much the creator of Wolverine as Martin Goodman is of the Fantastic Four.

• “John Romita remembers me asking him to design a wolverine costume, I may have looked at it once or twice before Herb Trimpe drew it into the story. Nor did I have any special contact with Len or Herb about the character after that.
• I had done my job by coming up with the general concept and name of the character called the Wolverine, who would be introduced as a villain (but, of course, at Marvel, that didn’t mean he wouldn’t be a hero any day now, and I wouldn’t have bothered conceiving a Canadian super-character who was ONLY going to be a villain, would I? That might just annoy Canadians, when I was trying to give them an extra reason to buy Marvel comics). After that, Len did his part, which included developing the Wolverine. I consider that I, Len Wein, John Romita, and Herb Trimpe are all the co-creators of the Wolverine, in that chronological order–no one else was involved, unless you want to count the colorist.” – Roy Thomas

This stance is a departure from Thomas’s earlier statements, including an interview in 1994 when he fairly and justly states that he is not the creator and that Len Wein basically is, outside of the visual creation of Wolverine’s costume. Again, this is Thomas changing his stance now that he has inherited Stan Lee’s “Last Man Standing” status.

• “Dave Cockrum may or may not have shown me his notion of a character called the Wolverine, one of a number of Legion of Super-Heroes types he’d created… I don’t recall… but I already knew what a wolverine was.“
• “It was also Len who came up with the idea of making Wolverine a mutant and his claws made out of Adamantium…”

SON OF SATAN (BILJO WHITE FANZINE CHARACTER)

Another rather blatant theft that’s hard to rationalize when you consider that Biljo White was a prominent and beloved figure in the fanzine community of the Sixties. Stan Lee wanted to develop a comic called “Mark of Satan” in the early Seventies to which Thomas claims he warned Lee that the attention such a title might attract would be negative. Thomas then develops the idea for “Son of Satan” and gives it to Gary Friedrich to write. It’s only years later when Thomas is called out on it- he doesn’t offer it up- that he claims that he must have been “subconsciously” remembering White’s fanzine character of the same name- with a mystical pitchfork as weapon, to boot- that this comes to surface. Roy Thomas, Creator.

GHOST RIDER (HELL-RIDER)

Roy Thomas has tried for years to downplay Gary Friedrich’s creation of Ghost Rider, using his status as childhood friend and alluding to Friedrich’s long-term alcoholism as reasons why Friedrich’s narrative can’t be trusted. However, Friedrich shared the genesis for his ideas with enough people whose accounts stand up to scrutiny when investigated whereas Thomas’s own recollections are vague at best and depend upon nostalgic loyalty to Marvel.

Friedrich had stated that he had the basic idea for Ghost Rider years before he launched him at Marvel and, a few years before then, had created Hell-Rider for Sol Brodsky’s Skywald line, a creation that certainly supports Friedrich’s claims if nothing else. Friedrich spoke about a childhood friend named CL Slinkard who had bright red hair and a gaunt appearance- one day, observing Slinkard on his motorcycle, Friedrich’s friends joked that his hair flowing behind him looked like flames– the image stayed with Friedrich (per Friedrich’s deposition in court). Notably, Roy Thomas also knew CL Slinkard.

Friedrich also shared his idea for Ghost Rider with David George, an Editor for Martin Goodman’s men magazines who remembered this decades later and had no financial interest or reason to lie.

• “I remember him talking about this idea he had for putting a character called Ghost Rider on a motorcycle, and half of what he would tell me would go in one ear and out the other.  When you are sitting there drinking, you don‘t hear everything. But it did jump out at me about this character that would sell his soul to the devil but for a good reason, a noble reason, and that’s about it.  I remember the flaming skull that he talked about. But he talked about it on more than one occasion. And his biggest thing was trying to get his ideas to be accepted.”– David George

Consider that Roy Thomas told a Missouri newspaper that comics were “only a tiny part” of Friedrich’s legacy. With Friedrich deceased, Thomas and his manager have been able to downplay Friedrich’s contributions and creations so that Thomas can claim them for himself.

• “By that time Roy did most of the actual editing and Stan took the credit for it.  I would show the letterer where and how to draw the box.  I added the “credit box” to the splash page in which I noted that Spotlight 5 had been “conceived and written by” me.  Roy saw that credit for me and never took issue with it.
• He merely added a credit for himself, indicating he had aided and abetted me. My own personal feeling was it first ticked me off because I thought he was claiming editorial credit, which I didn’t think he deserved. I initially contemplated removing the credit that he had added but then I got to thinking about it and I decided that he had taken the idea to Stan and helped me sell the idea to Stan, and so I assume that was the aid and abetment he was talking about and I let it go at that.” – Gary Friedrich

Note that, as mentioned earlier in this article, Thomas has been outspoken about other creators- notably, ones with much more impressive records than his- when they have dared to speak against Marvel, against Stan Lee, or against Roy Thomas himself. Both Jack Kirby and Neal Adams have been hit with the “delusions of grandeur” slur. Thomas is the first person to cry out when he feels overlooked or not properly credited- it’s a shame he lacks the moral character to properly credit others.

There are many more characters we could go over, but this is simply to give people the gist of Roy Thomas’s philosophy on what constitutes creating. You may agree with him; I do not. I believe assigning work, brainstorming names, suggesting an aspect is certainly a part of the creating process; it does not constitute you commissioning several prints which feature an illustration of yourself surrounded by other people’s characters. Thomas is a borrower, a remixer and, ultimately, a credit thief. And his biggest “take” just might be Stan Lee’s legacy of outliving your collaborators to ultimately reap all of the rewards.

With thanks to Michael Hill, Patrick Ford, Jon Cooke, Daniel Best.