“On My Recommendation, I Talked to Stan…” – Continued Dispatches From The Roy Thomas Dishonesty Tour

So much. So much has happened on the ongoing Roy Thomas Lies campaign that I barely know where to begin, o frantic ones. It’s hardly been three months since awareness of the Rascally One’s villainy increased, due to longtime Marvel editor Bobbie Chase post regarding Thomas’s retroactively granted credit as the co-creator of Wolverine. So much I tell you!

What’s especially interesting about all of this is that, outside of three puff-piece articles on Forbes– this hot topic has come to an abrupt stop.

Interviews with Thomas that were quite incendiary- including one covered by this humble site- suddenly went private or were pulled altogether. A fellow Marvel veteran told a prominent art agent at a prominent convention that Disney/Marvel asked Roy to “hold off” on Wolverine talk at this time.

And the pinnacle of comics criticism itself– once feared for its muckraking and its influence- continues its slow shuffle into irrelevancy as a circle jerk for art school graduates by rejecting an investigative article into the Thomas scandal.

Wow. Well, I guess it’s fortunate for you dear reader that we at Four Color Sinners are equally not trying to maintain a job within the comics industry or trying to pose as ‘historians’- therefore, we’ve got nothing compromising us from giving it to ya straight! So, fuck it, let’s get it on:

Many people will rationalize Thomas’s blatant and disgusting lies by telling themselves that Thomas is old and decrepit (true), and “deserves this time in the limelight“- I’ve never heard that being an elderly dickhead warrants the lessening of dishonesty and generally bad behavior simply because one is closer to death. I mean, Nazi war criminals are still put on trial into their nineties, am I right? No one says, “well, come on- der Lügner is too old!”

There’s also a touch of heavy nostalgia for people when they experience Roy Thomas, or rather, the made-over Roy, custom designed and adjusted for the lucrative convention circuit. People really do want to feel just that one step removed from their (false) mental conception of Smilin’ Stan and the Bullpen. Damn you, they need this. Why do you have to ruin their fun??

Brought to my attention this very morning was a meeting of legends from the living legend himself, modern day fuckboy John Cimino. The post shows a glorious photo of Jim Steranko’s remarkable toupee and Roy Thomas’s fantastical combover. But it’s Thomas’s quote accompanying the photograph that amazes my bitter old soul:

“…I asked him to wait there and went back in and told Sol this guy’s stuff was pretty good (I don’t recall having ever seen Jim’s work before) and I thought Stan should see him. On my recommendation, I talked to Stan and Stan agreed to see Jim for a few minutes. The rest of what happened is history… though I’ve no idea of precisely what went on behind closed doors between Jim and Stan, since I wasn’t there.” – Roy Thomas on The Roy Thomas Appreciated Board (moderated by notable Steve Ditko ambusher John Cimino)

I genuinely find it amazing that Roy Thomas continues to insert himself, however subtly (by Thomas standards) and blatantly and shamelessly retroactively continues to rewrite documented history. Has he been emboldened by the lack of pushback on his other bold and disgusting lies?

The issue with Thomas’s claim is that Steranko’s first meeting with Stan has been covered endlessly and tells a very different tale- one that, notably, does not mention Roy Thomas or his recommendations in the slightest.

• “I took a cab over to Marvel.  And I got there about five minutes to 5:00, and they were closing the joint. And I went up to the seventh floor of Marvel Comics, walked in. And there was Fabulous Flo Steinberg. Really cute go-go boots, short skirt. She was just really cute. And I wasn’t even caring about comic books at this point. Anyway, I said, I’d like to see Stanley… She laughed at my face. “Nobody sees Stan Lee”, she said. So, I grabbed her wrist, and I levered her arm up, and I put my Super-Agent X pages under her arm, clamped it down, and I said, “Stan will see me.” And I pointed her to the door.”

• “She left. And she came back about two minutes later. She had this stunned look on her face. And no pages… you get it?”

• Comic Book Historians: “Yeah, he took them, or he’s looking at them?”

• “It was like she’d been hit in the head with a ball-peen hammer. She was like stunned drunk. She said like, “Stan, will see you. And it was the cleanest office I’ve ever been in, in my life. Facing Madison Avenue, and it was at 57th and Madison…

• “And he’s right at the corner… No, I don’t think he was in the corner office yet. Anyway, I handed the pages over to him. And I told him the story about Tower, where I’d gotten into a fight. And he’s looking through my pages. And he’s asking me like, “Who the hell are you?” And I’m having a conversation with him about Kirby and Bill Everett and Johnny Severin. The guys that I love, and I grew up with. So, we’re having these alternate conversations, he’d do two minutes, and I’d do two minutes.”– COMIC BOOK HISTORIANS, August 2020

I left a little more of that anecdote in about Steranko and Lee’s general chit-chat just to establish the tone of Steranko’s recollection. Again, there’s no mention of Roy Thomas whatsoever. Is Steranko prone to exaggeration for dramatic effect? I’m sure, except that this story is repeatedly told throughout his history and never waivers from the structure you just read above.

• “I was an ad agency art director and simply walked into the Marvel offices at five to five one afternoon. I asked to see Stan and [receptionist] Fabulous Flo Steinberg laughed at me. “Nobody sees Stan,” she said. I wasn’t in the comics biz, but I had samples with me and tucked them under her arm. “Stan will see me!” She vanished for a couple minutes, returned somewhat stunned, “Stan will see you!” We hit it off immediately, and, after about 15 minutes of non-comics chatter, he turned to the rack of monthly comics behind him and said, “Pick one!” I could have had Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four or Thor, but I picked SHIELD, their weakest title because they simply didn’t know what to do with it. It was so bad, it had nowhere to go but up! The rest is history.” – ‘Introducing Jim Steranko’, THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER, September 2013

• ” With only a few minutes before their offices were set to close, Steranko decided to try his luck with Marvel. Initially, Flo Steinberg, who was Stan Lee’s secretary at the time, told Steranko that Stan Lee was not seeing anyone. He lifted Steinberg’s arm and put his work samples into her grip and stated, “Stan Lee WILL see me.” A shocked Steinberg had Lee come down to meet him. Lee was initially just interested in meeting such a ballsy character, but he ended up being very impressed with Steranko’s work. Lee said they really didn’t have room for a new creator, but he couldn’t afford to lose him to DC.”– Bleeding Cool convention panel transcript, May 8th, 2017

• Steranko also has the power of suggestion at his command: One day in the mid 1960s while in New York City seeking a publisher for his work, Jim stopped by the Marvel Comics offices at 4:55 p.m., right at the end of the workday. Seeing the office manager “Fabulous” Flo Steinberg Jim announced, “I’m here to see Stan Lee”. Flo chucked softly and said incredulously, “No one gets to see Stan Lee”. Tucking his artwork firmly under her arm, he retorted, “You show him this, he will see me.”
  
  Taken slightly aback by his boldness, she went to speak with editor Stan Lee. She returned shortly with a surprised look on her face and said to Jim, “Stan will see you!” – The News Journal, March 29th, 2015

• “Instead, he strode up to the desk of Flo Steinberg, Lee’s secretary, and simply asked to see Stan Lee. When Steinberg told him that Lee was of course too busy to meet with anyone, Steranko handed her a folio containing his drawings and declared “He won’t be too busy after he sees this!” Steinberg had been around comics long enough to know a special talent when she saw one. After glancing at the drawings, she returned them to Steranko, saying “You’re right! Stan will see you.”
  
  Lee agreed with Steinberg’s assessment, calling Steranko’s drawings “crude” but praising their “raw energy.” Due perhaps partially to an acknowledgment that many of his artists were drastically overworked, Lee pointed to a rack containing every Marvel title and asked “What would you like to do for us? Pick one!” Looking at a collection of comics that would have included Avengers, X-Men, and Amazing Spider-Man, Steranko chose a book that was “a Marvel embarrassment:” Strange Tales. Strange Tales was a split book, with each issue featuring a twelve-page story about surrealistic wizard Doctor Strange and a second about Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD. Steranko offered to handle the latter. Explaining his choice years later, Steranko claimed that “on this strip, there was nowhere to go but up!” And up it went.” – ‘Raw Energy’ by Andy Boyd, US HISTORY SCENE (undated article)

• “The additional material here is sterling! In his Afterword, Steranko describes his first audacious meeting with Stan Lee, after being told “No one meets Stan” by secretary Flo Steinberg. And how he came to choose SHIELD to be his book.” – review blurb for The Steranko Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD Artist’s Edition, Bud’s Art Books Website 

I admit that I don’t have a copy of Steranko’s Artist’s Edition handy, so I have to rely on the integrity of the Bud’s Art Books site. That being said, isn’t it at least interesting that Steranko, writing his own afterword in his own book devoted to his most acclaimed Sixties run, tells this very same story about Flo Steinberg??? And doesn’t mention Roy Thomas?? Aaaarrghhhhh!!!! *choke*

Thomas is obviously taking some small nugget of truth- perhaps Sol Brodsky did once tell him Steranko was in the waiting area- and channeling it into another piece of the revised Roy-as-creative-heir tapestry. He’s also building that tapestry by attracting more stragglers, more hangers-on, more people so obviously taken from the periphery of the piecemeal committee work that Marvel was so famous for, and offering them a tiny morsel from the pie, simply so he can use them to reinforce his and Cimino’s claims. It’s gross and it’s obvious.

I’ve received several e-mails over the past 11 months since I started Four Color Sinners about the antics and misdeeds of John Cimino. He was already on my radar- and my shit list- and my ass kicking list- for his disgusting and disrespectful ambush of Steve Ditko, which he conducted with the ample help of gross, heart-disease ridden Mitch Hallock. One of these e-mails I wrote about here: https://fourcolorsinners.com/2023/10/14/in-a-serpents-nest-nothing-can-survive-or-this-is-the-shit-i-have-to-deal-with/

This past weekend, Thomas, Cimino, and their Roy Boyzz “Kill Krew”- more on that later- appeared at North Carolina’s famous and beloved HEROES CON.

I received two e-mails, one of which was a dealer who informed me that Paty Cockrum, widow of Dave Cockrum, was selling prints of her husband’s work. He also said that, before attendees were let in, Thomas and Cimino approached her at her table- now, admittedly, that could simply be Thomas paying his respects. But apparently, Cimino kept visiting Paty’s table. And seemed pushy and overeager, which, to be fair, could be misconstrued and misunderstood since Cimino is just an obnoxious bitch. However, I found it notable.

Paty Cockrum lives off of a meager royalty from Marvel, given expressly for Marvel’s use of her husband’s creation Nightcrawler in media and merchandise. Besides that, she has publicly shared her financial struggles as all she otherwise receives is her social security check. Is it outside the realm of possibility that Cimino and Thomas wish to include her in Thomas’s growing circle? The way he’s done for his ex-wife, who now somehow warrants her own CGC signings as a “co-creator” simply for being in proximity and suggesting plot ideas for a werewolf story?

This is not a case of Thomas wanting to share the wealth and do right by others, or he wouldn’t be continuing his ongoing erasure of the contributions of Jack Kirby, Len Wein, Gary Friedrich, and others. This is a case of Thomas reinforcing the foundation he and Cimino started a decade ago, to remake and reposition Thomas as something he was not, something he has never been: a major creator and influence.

Cimino boasted about his “Roy Boyzz Kill Crew“- soon to include his newest member, Gerry Conway- and I wonder what it is they’re “killing” together. Could it be any and all questioning and/or criticizing about Thomas’s tactics as it pertains to creatorship? It sure seems that way to me.

And when John Morrow and Jon B Cooke will admit to me privately at the Baltimore Comic Con a few years ago that they frown upon Thomas and Cimino’s antics but will support them at this year’s Heroes Con publicly tells you all you need to know about the nostalgia wing of the convention circuit: these guys will tolerate any bullshit so long as it doesn’t rock the boat. When will enablers learn shame?

As I said, I’ve received numerous e-mails regarding the elusive Mr. Cimino. Some of them I’ve considered fakes, made by people like or connected to Cimino and Mitch Hallock, some have proven they’re real people who have had bad experiences and observed bad behavior from the man so wonderful he sometimes requires two biographies on interviews with his client even when he himself isn’t part of said interview. Also, multiple interviews featuring Thomas feel the need to communicate to the reader that Roy and John are BEST FRIENDS *slobber*

There are a few areas I wouldn’t tackle simply out of my own sense of what’s right. For example, someone who e-mailed me brought up their criticisms of how Cimino must be as a parent- that is off limits as it doesn’t pertain to what I’m reporting on. It is also not public business, which I believe Cimino’s actions within the world of comics clearly are.

If someone brought up Cimino’s family, I’d avoid that as well. I mean, anyone is free to criticize me but if they decided to touch upon my relatives or my exes or something- that’s a bitch move, like ambushing elderly men who have clearly communicated they don’t want to be bothered. You know, the way Cimino and Mitch Hallock did.

So, when someone wrote me claiming to be a friend of Cimino’s ex I was very wary and completely disinterested and communicated as such. When they proved their claims, I still told them, politely as I could, that I was not interested in pursuing any reporting on that area of things- even if I did momentarily hope it might make Cimino moved enough to accept my open challenge to a street fight and/or debate- until this lady told me something that I thought did have context and relevance to what we see today. Extreme relevance.

I’ll keep this short and also stress again that it is true, and I share it simply because it reenforces and reiterates the modus operandi of one John Cimino, especially as it pertains to his campaign for his client, Roy Thomas. Motivation. Pattern of behavior. All that shit.

Cimino was indeed once married- to someone that was a “star” on an MTV reality show. I myself was out of the country at the time of this show and have therefore been oblivious to its existence up until his ex-wife’s friend got in touch to fill me in. Long story short, the Mego Stretch Hulk has been adding his name to more famous people’s biographies for a lot longer than we initially knew. ‘

Turns out he grated on his former spouse by insisting that she introduce him to television producers and do more with her notoriety (I am told that this woman did not enjoy her experience on this show and downplayed any potential for “fame” by her friend), and, apparently, would make fake accounts commenting on any thread that mentioned her and this show so that he could add in how she was married to the guy that starred on the web series Hero Envy. You know, something a real person would totally think to write about!!!

So, John Cimino always had a plan: be famous by association. Be notable by proximity.

He couldn’t gain notoriety from his former spouse, he couldn’t gain fame from old Ben Cooper Halloween costumes, he couldn’t gain popularity from disrespecting legends in their Eighties, but he can find some notability from hitching his star to Roy “The Boy” Thomas.

And, as I’ve admitted in the past, Cimino does do his job. Thomas is enjoying a reputation renaissance that has come with more fame, more respect and more royalties than he has ever enjoyed in his long career. All because Cimino had the vision to recognize that these comic book creeps would long for a replacement for ol’ Stan once he shuffled off to those old Bullpen Bulletins in the sky. Good job, Johnny.

Say it isn’t so. The Comics Journal– once equally feared and derided by the entire comics industry– has decided not to pursue coverage of the Roy Thomas/Wolverine story. And allow me to stress- I don’t mean they’re choosing not to pursue it.

I am telling you, quite plainly, that they decided not to print it.

Both Christine Valada (Len Wein’s widow) and Andy Olsen (creator of the FOOM! Wolverine) confided in me their experiences being interviewed by The Comics Journal about an investigative piece that was born in the aftermath of Marvel’s public announcement of Thomas’s newfound credit as Co-Creator of Wolverine. This piece was so sizeable, so significant, and such a hot topic in the industry, it was possible it may have been a multi-part epic.

Alas, it is not to be. Rumors abound that Fantagraphics legal team considered the possibility of a litigious Thomas counterattack, that Fantagraphics’ newfound contract with Marvel to produce those lavish Atlas Collections might make relations awkward, and… you get the picture.

Without some sort of voice and moral center for the industry, more creator theft will occur from publishers and less knowledge of the past will be imparted to potential new readers. The Comics Journal has fallen, and, from its remnants, comes a publication that, in the words of comics historian Patrick Ford, “of being completely focused on small press comics created by the children of wealthy parents.“ (No offense meant, Josh.)

Lastly for today, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. I once again must clarify that I am not interested in becoming a personality, promoting myself, or using what I write here to attempt to somehow gain notoriety within the world of comics. I have been employed in the world of comics and comics fandom where I worked discreetly to attempt to help elder creators and so forth. I began Four Color Sinners strictly as a response to a distinct lack of any journalistic fundamentals in the ever-growing fan interviewee subculture.

Somewhat recently, I was cited by a well-known comic book writer and editor who disparaged and insulted me while grudgingly admitting that FCS was “well researched”. He said that this site reeks of “smug arrogance”, then continued his patronage by commenting on another article (in regard to a frequent commentator before I learned how to filter comments). He has also written on posts sent to me by others that being a historian means you shouldn’t routinely insult the people you’re writing about, etc.

Let me begin with that last part, for this is very important. I do not claim to be a historian… which is the point of everything I write, or why I write, and why I am partially insane WHEN I write it.

A historian? I don’t claim this. THEY DO. And THEY KEEP FUCKING UP. Hence my compulsion to jump in and bring up very simple counter points like, you know, those interview subjects’ actual statements from previous encounters.

Two of the three pieces on Thomas and Wolverine appeared on Forbes, written by Rob Salkowitz, whom I’ve had a brief exchange with (where he, also misunderstanding, implied I wanted “confrontation”- far from it), in which he misquoted Christine Valada and refused to push Thomas on anything, leaning on the lazy and lacking-in-journalistic-integrity “I wasn’t there and neither were you” logic.

Salkowitz is one of the V.I.P.s. Someone that gets to rub elbows with the perceived comics elite so long as he knows his tier and doesn’t rock the boat. He holds his subjects in a state of awe and publicly dilutes the power of any of the good things he’s written by publicly lamenting several times how writers like himself barely get paid for the banal pieces they do for nerd culture websites.

I certainly don’t want to whine but something quite logical occurred to me. I get insulted and criticized- hey, that’s fine. But why is it easier to call me out? Why not- you know- use your apparent influence to, say, call out John Cimino?

Seriously. Because I don’t stand on ceremony? Because there are no sacred cows to me? Because I’m upsetting something? Fuck all of that.

(And secondly- it’s Andy OLSEN. Not Andy OWENS, which has been repeated not once, not twice, but three times- and sometimes when this person- again, an acclaimed WRITER/EDITOR- typed it out online. Am I wrong or is it just bizarre that someone as pathologically steeped in the Superman mythos would continually forget the last name OLSEN??)

Salkowitz posted his Forbes articles with the comment “I’m going to put this here and duck” which says everything about his psychological outlook. What journalist worth their salt wants to duck from their story? It’s a tactic designed to instigate online argument. A cheap tactic and obvious one.

Both Salkowitz and the aging, increasingly creaky comics professional were dismissive of my belief that Andy Olsen’s ‘Wolverine‘ name was taken by Thomas. But were they? I know I’m not a “real writer” but believe I was articulate enough to establish that all I meant was the NAME. Salkowitz and the unattractive comics veteran made a point to repeat that Thomas didn’t need to take Olsen’s character- which I never said he did. Several people have told me that they too believe this was simply to dilute the reachability and credibility of the piece.

Dave Cockrum pitched a ‘Wolverine’ to Thomas. Olsen submits a ‘Wolverine’. This was not a random submission, as we’ve covered previously. It was for a major contest that Thomas was involved in– the winning issue literally has Thomas giving his thoughts of what he intends to do with the winning character!

Salkowitz said that “People sent stuff into fanzines all the time” which is true. But FOOM was not a fanzine in the usual sense. It was published by Marvel and Roy Thomas had a hand in its editorial. Listen, it’s possible Thomas didn’t see it- but the evidence establishes that he did. Salkowitz and the writer who have chosen to ignore these very significant factors, for whatever reason.

Allow me a follow up response to Rob Salkowitz and his ilk, if I may- more context as to why I believe Roy Thomas took the name “Wolverine” and didn’t create it out of “coming up with animal names was normal in comics“:

• “I wouldn’t be resenting it quite as much, because I’d say well it isn’t all mine, you know Jack Kirby made up HIM… Stan Lee and Maneely made up a Black Knight, if I do a Black Knight or a Vision, that was Kirby, maybe Simon… obviously, you know you can’t help make, because you, anyway you make up villains, you can’t keep swiping them entirely…”

• “It’s strange, when I was gonna make up a hero, I’d, I’d try to think of what I could SWIPE…” – Roy Thomas, ‘Bronze Age Monsters’ Interview, Feb 2024

The Rascally One doesn’t even try to hide it. Is that clinging to it if it makes us happy? What would make people happy is if Roy Thomas stopped lying, John Cimino got called out by the comics community, and comics fandom held more people accountable in “interviews”. At the very least, it’d be a start.

As that isn’t likely to happen anytime soon, we’re sadly stuck with the tier system of cool kids and V.I.P.s allowing grown men obsessed with the archaic continuity of super-heroes from the past to continue their thuggery as they bask in the glow of adoration from leering fanboys at the ceremonial gatherings they call comic conventions.

These manipulators bank on others being too reluctant, too awkward, too hesitant to really hold their feet to the fire when it comes to credit theft and lies. Don’t fall into it- there’s enough magic in comics to go around- if people would just stop hesitating on what Roy Thomas is doing. Mark my words, the Wolverine credit isn’t where it ends. There’s much more Marvelous Mayhem to come. Call it out each and every time you see it. Fuck these guys.

with thanks to Earth-1 Gary Groth, Rob Salkowitz’s photographer, Michael Hill, Patrick Ford, Daniel Greenburg, Chuck Gower, Tom Spurgeon, Steve Ditko, Christine Valada, Andy Olsen, and a handful of sources that have to remain nameless.