“Was Never The Same Without-” Looking At Simon & Lee Sans Kirby

If you read enough on the history of comic books and who-did-what and when, whether it’s transcriptions of interviews, blogs or essays or even comments from fans and collectors on message boards, the statement is ubiquitous. It is oft repeated and simply cannot be avoided. That is, that in the minds of many, Jack Kirby frankly was never as good on his own as he when he was with Stan or Joe….

Jack Kirby had significant and highly influential partnerships with Joe Simon and Stan Lee during different parts of his career though the latter is less an official “partnership” and more a product of necessity, however Lee liked to frame it at certain points of his life.

When Kirby had had enough of having his vision diluted and his concepts taken from him, he launched the ambitious and wide reaching Fourth World saga at DC; it’s largely this (but also his later Seventies work as well) that many apply the “like it or not, Kirby was never as successful without Simon or Lee” rationale and you don’t need to take my word for it: simply Google “Kirby never as good without Stan Lee or Joe Simon” and numerous instances of this appear.

I’ve seen it in countless interviews with comic professionals, I’ve seen it in the blogs and writings of comic editors and writers, I’ve seen it on YouTube comments and forum posts. It’s not for me to argue people’s opinions, even if they’re informed by repeated and suggestive statements that we’ve heard for decades- but it did get me thinking. Rather than evaluate Kirby’s complete solo work- why not look at what Simon and Lee did without Kirby? Were they ever as good without Jack?

I’m going to break this into two parts, mostly because Lee has a larger body of work with more various collaborators that we will need to take into consideration (notably, in the Lee entry, I’ll look at what was claimed to be entirely Lee’s creations and projects) so this entry will look at the majority of Joe Simon’s work when working independently of Jack Kirby.

And listen, I’m not saying that Simon wasn’t talented or wasn’t influential. This is entirely looking at his work without the vital Kirby element in it. (So for everyone rushing to comment that I’ve left something out… this is not meant to be the exhaustive and comprehensive list of Simon’s post-Kirby comics work… not that Simon did that much)

1. SICK MAGAZINE (1960-1980)

Sick Magazine was one of many take-offs of the institution that was MAD Magazine, though to its credit, it had a respectable twenty year run and lasted over 100 issues. Simon only edited Sick for a handful of issues throughout the Sixties but remained involved until its end both as a contributor and painting the majority of its covers. It’s worth noting that comics legend Bob Powell was the Art Director of Sick until his death; I’ve seen the fleeting references to Sick as being entirely Simon’s work but in fact, several notable names worked on the magazine in Editorial and creative.

Sick boasted a blatant Alfred E. Neuman rip-off for a mascot and, 1966’s issue #48 boasted Simon’s famous Stan Lee parody story “The New Age of Comics“, illustrated by Angelo Torres. Simon was also keen to parody the returning popularity of comics and super-heroes in general in the pages of Sick and generally produced an entertaining magazine, no doubt helped by having artists like Torres and George Tuska at his disposal.

So, if we were to run a tally…? During Simon’s time running Sick Magazine, Kirby created the Marvel Universe… and the Fourth World Saga… and even Machine Man, The Eternals, and, yes, Devil Dinosaur. I don’t know about you, but I kind of feel like Kirby’s work comes out ahead of Sick, as fun as it looks! Moving on…

2. HARVEY THRILLER LINE (1966-1967)

According to Tom Brevoort, such was the industry buzz at Joe Simon creating a line of new titles for Harvey Comics, that (depending on each telling), Martin Goodman and Stan Lee or Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were highly distressed, deeply worried, and in a “panic”. This is something that reads very much like fan writing speak that’s been repeated since it was originally written in a fanzine somewhere years earlier, because it’s highly unlikely that this would have induced much concern by 1966-1967 at Marvel, if at all. For one (very significant) reason: Marvel had Jack Kirby. Who knew Simon better than he did out of anyone else there?

So, I would think that any concern over Joe Simon would be as severe as concern over Jerry Siegel working at Archie around the same time. It’s something fans might think was a thing but people in the industry would think otherwise, if they thought about it at all. And let me be completely frank here when I tell you: I find all of Simon’s attempts at new characters in the Sixties to be genuinely enjoyable and all contain- unintentionally, to be fair- the kind of ludicrous madness that make comics fun.

Simon hired Jim Steranko, early in his career, to develop and create characters and then notably didn’t use Steranko in any serious capacity, which I find notable since Simon is considered (by his supporters) as a highly skilled Editor. In fact, Simon told Steranko he “couldn’t draw”. Had Simon used Steranko’s talent at that point, the Harvey line might have had a fighting chance.

One of the (non-Steranko) characters that Simon produced was B-Man, whose powers would fade if he didn’t have an ample supply of honey. I’d like to now compare and contrast Simon’s contributions from December 1966 in Double-Dare Adventures to Kirby’s story in Fantastic Four #57, from the same month. Dialogue by Stan Lee of course, based on Kirby’s margin notes:

I don’t know man… I could see Michael Allred really doing something cool with B-Man. But I’ve got to give the better work, more original ideas and more marketable approach… to Kirby here. Yes, I’m aware this is Kirby with Lee at the time, but again- this is focusing on Simon without Kirby.

3. BROTHER POWER, THE GEEK (1968)

Again, it is said that DC brought in Joe Simon to create new titles to compete with Marvel’s growing influence. Without the partnership of Jack Kirby, Simon comes up with… Brother Power, the Geek (originally titled “the Freak” but DC Editors thought this inferred drug pushers), the relatively original story of a storehouse mannequin who is struck by lightning and then adopted by a group of hippies. Hey, I’m not knocking it- again, that’s some batshit insane concept for a comic in any era and I welcome it!

What especially interested me was an editorial in that book about Simon’s accomplishments in comics before returning to DC in ’68…

Notably, there is no mention at all of Jack Kirby. “He” created. Stan Lee once claimed that Simon taught him everything he knew- that statement is magnified as we see Simon doing what Lee did in Origins of Marvel Comics, some years before that was published. Regardless, Brother Power only lasted two issues- fun for what it is, it simply cannot be expected to hold up to any title Kirby produced during the same period- which lends itself to the argument that Kirby was the essential component of their partnership, the one that conceived and cultivated marketable and relatable ideas for the buying public.

4. PREZ (1973)

Another concept that I honestly think is rather great in a lunatic way, and very much of its time. Simon creates Prez for DC, which tells the story of “America’s First Teenage President“- I can see this becoming a Netflix series today, even- like Simon’s other books sans Kirby he notably isn’t drawing, only writing and overseeing. Prez would be used to credible effect years later by Neil Gaiman in the pages of The Sandman. Tragically, this series didn’t last very long. And while Kirby’s series of the same period also didn’t last too long- The Demon and Kamandi– they lasted significantly longer than Prez. Makes you think.

Update: Mark Mayerson brought to my attention that the film “Wild in the Streets” from May 1968 was likely an obvious influence on Prez. The film stars Christopher Jones as a 24 year old Rock singer (in a band with Richard Pryor on drums!) who realizes that 52% of the population is 25 years old or younger and ends up running for office once a Senator played by Hal Halbrook gets the voting age lowered. Prez #1 was released three months after Wild in the Streets premiered.

5. THE GREEN TEAM (1975)

This was the totally relatable concept of boy millionaires who go and have adventures. I just wrote that and realized that Richie Rich was successful for decades, so perhaps I should hold my tongue. Illustrated by the underrated Jerry Grandetti, I especially love the panel above where one member happily exclaims “I don’t have any money! I’m just a jerk!” as if to solidify the concept that most millionaires are fuckin’ dickheads.

Simon & Kirby had essentially created the “Kid Gang” concept in comic books- though, admittedly, the Hal Roach film series ‘Our Gang’ was an obvious influence- with the Newsboy Legion, Boy Commandos, Boys Ranch, Young Allies and others- so clearly there’s some degree of Kirby influence lingering in this. But it only lasted one issue.

6. SHIELDMASTER (1998; 2021-PRESENT)

Ol’ ShieldMaster isn’t just the last major creation of Joe Simon, it’s the lynchpin of the Simon Family comics dynasty: as of this writing, grandson Jesse Simon is producing ShieldMaster comics using Kickstarter. And Jesse Simon certainly comes off as a savant, but more on him later.

This character initially appeared in a 1998 issue of the long-defunct Comic Book Marketplace. After appearing in a French publication, the Simon family began a concentrated effort to get ShieldMaster into the public eye; Jesse Simon is a regular presence at comic conventions these days, touting both his involvement with the series as well as being a “Simon & Kirby Expert”.

Simon, the Old Master, on his own… produces the vibrant and dynamic ShieldMaster at an age that most men are in retirement homes. Free of the large and looming shadow of Jack Kirby, he puts brush to paper and shows that the old magic hasn’t left him. He creates a figure so powerful, so spectacular, so… wait, wait. Where… where have I seen this character before??

Left: Simon Family’s SHIELDMASTER. Right: Simon & Kirby’s LANCELOT STRONG.

Ahhh.. I seem to remember, now. Besides the adding of a shield– which, perhaps Simon believed he was entitled to do- Simon’s ShieldMaster is simply a blatant rewriting of Lancelot Strong, The Shield, with some Captain America thrown in. Simon defenders will be quick to mention Fighting American but that was- per Simon & Kirby’s own admission- a deliberate parody of Captain America. ShieldMaster is touted as an original character throughout.

In fact, the Simon family has at times seemed defensive of any interviewer bringing up this obvious visual facet. In one, Jim Simon denies that the flag motif has anything to do with previous characters, pointing out that the flags of other countries contain the same colors as an American flag, as well as this great exchange with Simon and his collaborators:

Jesse Simon was interviewed by Alex Grand, who noticed plot elements lifted outright from The Fly and Lancelot Strong.

Jesse Simon: “If you didn’t know Joe or even if you did, when you were talking to him about comics and ideas for comics artwork he was very critical… he was an Editor, you know… he would say, ‘this is no good, that needs improvement’… but, for some reason.. he even shocked my Father a little bit.. he really liked ShieldMaster.”

Alex Grand: “Oh, cool.” (June 7th, 2023)

Grand does his best to coax a serviceable interview out of Simon who, quite honestly, seems a bit on the spectrum to me (and that isn’t meant in a derogatory way) and is somewhat prone to grandiose rants and statements. Grand tells Simon that a character with a heavily bandaged face swearing revenge seems like a possible homage to Doctor Doom. Simon replies with the somewhat bizarre answer that, because his Father grew up reading Joe Simon’s work on The Fly and Lancelot Strong, those characters will “bleed through”- Grand isn’t sure what to make of this, understandably.

In an interview with the YouTube channel Near Mint Condition, Jesse tells them that he has a “brand new idea” that’s “never been done”- in which unfinished Simon sketches would be finished by newer artists. “I’ve come up with this idea- if I’m not the first one, I am in my own mind, because I haven’t seen it.” The host respectfully adds that this has been done but Jesse Simon completely brushes it off. “Well, look- who knows? I’d personally love to see Liefeld and McFarlane do their own take on Joe’s unfinished sketches…”

This concept has been done nearly 100 times… by TwoMorrows Publishing’s The Jack Kirby Collector. Each cover is penciled Kirby art inked by newer artists or legendary artists that possibly never worked with Kirby during his lifetime to create a “new” cover of sorts. The fact that this was unknown to Jesse Simon speaks volumes.

Jesse Simon frequently comes off in interviews as someone who is often on a road that only he can see- but hey, visionaries get all the arrows as they say.

In closing, Joe Simon was a respectable and talented journeyman creator whose best work was with Jack Kirby- without Kirby, he only regurgitated familiar tropes and remained in the margins. I’m glad his Grandson is carrying on his legacy but unfortunately, his upbringing of only hearing how his Grandfather made Kirby and Marvel has had an effect on his outlook which is reflected in his numerous public comments. Nevertheless, the record stands for itself.

Did Joe Simon do anything that was as successful or original on his own as he did with Jack Kirby? The answer is a resounding no. And that’s not shameful by any means. But the fact remains that, if you’re going to compare Kirby’s work without the two men most associated with him, you’ve got to compare their work in return. One guy creates Brother Power, The Geek. One guy creates The Silver Surfer. I rest my case.

The next installment of this series will cover Stan Lee’s work without Kirby and be much more exhaustive, so look for it at a future date. Thanks.