“Roy Said to Me I ‘Just Showed Up & Never left’- And He’s Right!”- The Moving Story of The Roy Boyzz

They are, quite possibly, the current most iconic duo in the world of comic books. They are seemingly joined at the hip and feed off of each other’s energy, finish each other’s sentences and go nowhere without the other. Not since the days of Bing Crosby and Bob Hope has there been a partnership so ingrained in the public subconscious as a total unit; their partnership is both inspiring and heartwarming and is the catalyst for the somewhat recent rewriting of history in regard to the career of Roy Thomas, living legend and CREATOR.

We are talking about, of course, “Rascally” Roy Thomas and his manager/promoter John Cimino- collectively known (per Cimino) as The Roy Boyzz.

• “With a tear in my eye, I give thanks to Stan Lee for giving “The Boy” an opportunity to express his gifts to the medium that we look to for our inspiration and change the world.

• The new era has begun. The ROY THOMAS ERA.” – John Cimino

I’d like to clarify that it’s my impression that Thomas and Cimino have a genuinely close relationship; Cimino also is certainly doing his job in regard to promoting Thomas even if that promotion inevitably includes numerous references to Cimino himself in each and every article featuring Thomas as well as scattered biographies for Cimino at the end of interviews that otherwise didn’t mention him whatsoever. But that’s not why I frown upon the ambitious Mr. Cimino. My distaste for him stems from one incident in particular… an incident that both surprised and disappointed me when it happened for a lack of public outcry on behalf of its recipient.

• In July, a longtime Ditko fan sent me an email saying “I don’t know if you saw the video John Cimino had taken of Ditko at his door. It went down pretty quickly. There’s still a post on Facebook about Cimino, condemning him. …. Cimino has a Twitter feed and if you go back half a year you can see the photo before they ambushed Ditko. …. They also took a flash picture of Ditko at his door, they were laughing at him.” – Rob Imes

Steve Ditko was well known- at least among comic book enthusiasts, as Cimino is- for his aversion to being photographed or confronted by fans. Regardless of your opinion on Mr. Ditko’s preferences, it was his right to not be accosted and have his privacy respected. John Cimino showed what kind of character he has- as well as confirming his general buffoonery- by hijacking an elderly man.

I’ve considered that Thomas himself didn’t scold Cimino for this behavior due to Thomas not being a huge advocate for Ditko and being a significant defender of Stan Lee. In fact, Thomas met Cimino due to the latter’s attempts to dilute Ditko’s contributions to the Spider-Man character when Cimino found a Ben Cooper Halloween costume with a similar webbed pattern; Cimino shopped this to various newspapers as evidence that the legendary Spider-Man costume as we know it had been ripped off by Ditko, though this was only implied and never directly stated.

(above: excerpt from The Daily Mail, July 2015)

That story isn’t essential for the purposes of this article, but I wanted to provide it for context; it’s possible Cimino was upset that Ditko wouldn’t tell him what he wanted to hear and used this as rationalization for his totally shitty ambush of a man in his Eighties.

• “TO THE COMIC BOOK COMMUNITY:

“IN 2015 JOHN CIMINO & MITCH HALLOCK decided that it would be “cool” to sneak up and get video of Steve Ditko at his door. They not only never asked permission , but thought it was funny and was their right to invade Mr Ditko’s privacy and his long time wish NOT to be photographed or video taped.

Since 1968 Ditko asked to be left alone, he preferred to be known for his creations , his art. When his idol Will Eisner asked to interview him, Ditko turned him down. He gave a short interview with BBC a few years back but wouldn’t allow pictures or videos. BBC and our hobby we all enjoy , all respected his wishes. He may have been different in some people’s eyes, but just because you think something is “cool” doesn’t give you the right to invade someone’s privacy like that!

This video is Totally disrespectful of a man who spent his life creating a visual world for all of us to enjoy. He never wanted fame nor money. He never allowed himself to be photographed or videotaped after 1968. So you think it’s “cool” to invade the man’s privacy, a man who owed you NOTHING. He asked to be left alone and the industry and hobby respected his wishes,. This video is nothing but a spit in the face of what he was! Roy Thomas should be ashamed to have you even represent him. While you’re at it make sure to go to famous people’s death beds and get a video or picture of them before they die. For some reason you think you have that right.“
– Tracey Baker

(above: coconspirator and heartthrob Mitch Hallock is on the left. Every person in this photograph whose identity is not protected with a black bar is someone I will willingly challenge to a street fight on Ditko’s behalf- just for the record.)

I realize you’re reading this for the inspirational story of the Roy Boyzz, but I feel (really) that Cimino’s treatment of Steve Ditko is beyond shameful. And how he is able to continue to wade through the comic book industry with no one bringing it up, is amazing to me. By all means, if Cimino has ever apologized for doing this, I ask you to bring it to my attention. As it stands, I’ve never seen it- and have sought it out.

While the rise of the Marvel Cinematic Universe had brought increased attention and appreciation to the source material the films were based on, Roy Thomas still remained a more mellow figure on the lucrative convention scene. He would be sought out specifically by press to comment upon the film versions of characters he was identified with now and then, such as when Avengers: Age of Ultron was released in 2015. But otherwise, his status as Stan Lee’s chosen heir and protege and living legend was still yet to happen.

Thomas apparently met Cimino on the convention/signing circuit and likely found what most people did: an enthusiastic, gregarious guy with an enthusiasm for the Marvel stories of his youth.

• “Roy said to me, “I just showed up and I never left”- and he’s right!” – John Cimino

• “He’s just this character I kept running into at conventions and he kept saying, ‘You wanna see my old Spider-Man suits?’ And-” (Cimino leans over and kisses Roy)
• “We’re not really that way…” – Roy Thomas, still protecting his conservative ideals

I believe that Cimino had the foresight to realize that once Stan Lee died, his seat as the reigning connection to the creation of the Marvel Universe as we know it would be left empty on the extremely lucrative convention circuit. There’s some evidence to support this theory, as when Cimino was interviewed on a podcast in 2020:

• “It’s very forward thinking of you… you brought this up five or six years ago to me, you said, Roy’s time is coming…” – ‘Darth Otto’ from 3 MEN IN A BASEMENT podcast, Oct 2 2020

This means that circa 2014-2015, some three or four years before Lee’s death, Cimino was considering the potential marketing value of shifting Thomas into the throne.

• “No one is gonna know that I co-created Wolverine or Luke Cage… no one was gonna know this, because I wasn’t out there promoting myself… he says, “you know, we should make people aware of this” and I said, go for it… it’s been profitable, it’s been entertaining.. it’s not just about the money….” – Roy Thomas, POPXP! NETWORK! Podcast, Jan 26th, 2021

• “He started coming up with ways we could do things a little different…” – Roy Thomas, 2021

Cimino got to work marketing Thomas as the CREATOR of characters he had extremely little to do with, advertised in passing to a customer base who wasn’t educated enough and likely wouldn’t care if they were. Cimino also developed a relationship with Rich Johnston at Bleeding Cool where Thomas would either proactively write an essay about perceived slights from the comic book industry or respond to artists that dared to speak against his narrative.

It was the kind of content Johnston is all too eager to receive and exploit, so one presumes he saw no problem with the mandatory “repped by John Cimino” and “managed by John Cimino” bylines that came with every single article involving Thomas.

And who is to say that wasn’t insisted upon by Thomas himself? After all, Thomas didn’t have an heir or protege. He had no children and very little adult friends. Perhaps the shenanigans he and Cimino got into were extending his life!

Cimino maintains a prolific online presence stemming from his days running the Hero Envy blog and talking about himself in long, autobiographical posts. This inevitably leads to posts praising Thomas, written with fan-ish enthusiasm but disturbingly fraught with historical errors and blatant untruths about both Thomas’s contributions and role in comics history.

• “His work has inspired millions upon millions of people all over the world and so many generations of readers, actors, directors, writers and artists. His imprint on pop culture is everywhere and will outlive all of us. He has taken the mantel (sic) from his mentor, the great Stan Lee and is now the regining (sic) King of Comics and the best part is, Roy is one of us. An every man (sic) with no ego and a pure loyal heart.”- John Cimino, 2021

• “Roy Thomas is in the house!!! Endless fans with endless smiles. The King is here!!” – John Cimino, Sept 18th 2021

• “Don’t miss this rare chance at seeing the reigning King of Comics and pioneer of comicbook fandom. Yup, Stan Lee’s protégé is coming and a VIP dinner with LIMITED seating and freebies is also available if you want to get up close and personal with a legitimate living legend.”- John Cimino, Sept 13th, 2021

Can I take a moment to point out how disrespectful it is for Cimino to keep trying to make Roy Thomas “The King” of comics into a thing…? I say this realizing that Jack Kirby did not like this nickname, which was fostered upon him, but the truth of the matter is that that nickname has sunk in and comic fans associate it with Jack Kirby, for better or worse.

Cimino absolutely knows this- it’s intended as a dig at Kirby as well as one more thing for the pro-Stan camp to strip away from him.

The involvement of John Cimino in all things Thomas does means that, inescapably, you’re bound to hear about his terrible (and failed) band. Honestly, Cimino’s Hardcore band Grimlock (see, I mentioned the name John- I’m fair) gets mentioned on a regular basis in Alter Ego magazine, sometimes more than once.

Consider that Cimino himself writes that Alter Ego #170 is an “ALL JACK KIRBY special edition”- so ALL JACK KIRBY means that a reference to Grimlock “had to happen!”

Due to the resurgence in Roy Mania, the narrative has been blatantly re-written to state that Thomas is the creator of Wolverine, Storm, Ghost Rider and several other characters he literally had minimal editorial involvement in. This doesn’t seem to be an issue for Cimino, whose campaigning led to the makeover of Roy Thomas as living legend.

• “You know, not many people can say their best friend, mentor and hero is a legitimate National Treasure and bonafide Living Legend. Roy Thomas’ work has literally touched not only me but millions upon millions of people all over the world and inspired so many generations of new readers, actors, directors, writers and artists that it can leave you in total awe.” – John Cimino

• “The credit… he’s always GIVING the credit to where credit is due with these creators. A guy at HIS level.. there’s no ego…” – John Cimino

The presence of Cimino at Thomas’s side- even sometimes appearing in photo ops where Thomas was the draw, not Cimino- reminds me of another ubiquitous talent/manager relationship. In the Eighties, Beach Boy Brian Wilson had his life made over by psychiatrist Eugene Landy- a figure who latched onto Wilson, recasted himself as Wilson’s manager and eventually got co-writing credits on Wilson’s albums!

I have spoken to a few people who work for a prominent comic convention; all told me off-the-record that Thomas insists upon Cimino receiving credit, billing and references to him in related promotional items. That’s certainly Thomas’s prerogative and, clearly, he’s not in the mental condition that Wilson was when Landy became his unavoidable creative partner. But I wonder how many people who pay for a Roy Thomas experience really needed the added bonus of John Cimino, to boot?

• “The Roy Boyzz have invaded Sarasota, Florida and we’re headed to the CGC headquarters for a lucrative and massive private comicbook signing. The amount of books that came in is twice as much than our last visit in December (which was already an in-house record). The protégé has become the Man!!” – John Cimino

When Josephine Riesman’s True Believer biography was released, Cimino was quick to post a passionate rebuttal, taking the popular stance of “you weren’t there“, forgetting that he wasn’t there either:

• “Stan Lee and his protégé Roy Thomas. The characters they co-created between them and the stories they told changed the entire world and helped make the MCU the biggest movie franchise in the history of film. It’s only fitting that they were together in Stan’s last photo’s ever taken. What a legacy.

• And to anybody that thinks these two had a “tumultuous” relationship because some shady biographies are out there written by people who weren’t even around them and want to interpret events how they “assumed” they were whether true or not, does not know Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. Did Roy and Stan have some disagreements? Sure they did. Did Roy speak his mind even if it went against Stan’s wishes? You bet. Working together for so many years, especially during Marvel’s most ambitious period (1965-1974) was basically lead by them, so you’re bound to have some friction. But “tumultuous”?? That’s just stupid and written to fill a salacious narrative that rubes salivate over and it sells books.

• There was nobody in the business that Stan trusted and respected more than Roy Thomas. Stan has always said that Roy saved his life and was just the person he was looking for to help him carry the Marvel banner. And even towards the end of Stan’s life when Stan needed a fact or question answered, he called Roy. Hell, it was Stan who personally chose Roy to write THE STAN LEE STORY from TASCHEN that was based on his life.” – John Cimino, choking back defiant tears

I’d take exception of “the characters they co-created between them” as this is a deliberately misleading statement. It purposely leaves out anyone outside of Lee and Thomas, which is Cimino’s real intent. And Riesman is treated to the “interpret” attack- can we interpret actual documented evidence? But that’s another topic.

Cimino actually earned his paycheck when he- amazingly to me, though no fault of Cimino’s for once- had to set up a meeting between Lee and Thomas. I say that it’s amazing because Thomas apparently had kept trying to hang out with Lee for four years. You can’t blame Max Anderson and Keya Thompson all the time- which is what Cimino tried to do- there were plenty of opportunities for Thomas and Lee to connect over the years, especially at conventions- what was the real reason Lee didn’t want to deal with Thomas until the very end?

• “Roy would always ask me, can you try to get us together…?” – John Cimino

I include that because I think it’s notable that a guy who bases his entire career on being Stan Lee’s chosen heir couldn’t meet up with him for years.

As it is, this meeting would cement and solidify the image that Cimino and Thomas so wanted to cultivate. The last photo of Stan Lee also includes Thomas and Cimino, who likely couldn’t believe his luck. He knew he could dine out for years on this anecdote- and he does. With numerous references to himself, his haters, his doubters, and the trajectory of his apparently amazing life.

You might ask, “well, who are they hurting?” Again, the current perception of Roy Thomas as a creator of numerous heroes is both dishonest and misleading. It is a deliberate campaign to recast Thomas as something he was not in order to capitalize on the public’s sense of loss over Stan Lee- himself a public facade.

Was Thomas important to Marvel? Of course he was. But he’s inherited his mentor’s habit of taking credit for things he didn’t do.

Barry Windsor-Smith and Neal Adams would publicly call Thomas out for his appropriation of credit on stories they collaborated on. When Adams died, Cimino saw fit to write a moving tribute- a tribute filled with references to Thomas’s superior role, grander vision, and numerous issues with Adams:

Yes, I’m sure Roy did all he could to steer and guide Neal Adams.

Unlike past articles, this one is topical- we are sure to be dealing with the antics of John Cimino for years to come, especially as I’m sure he’s inheriting Alter Ego. Good for him- he does have a passionate enthusiasm even if that passion is tempered with a shrewd need to market and profit off of his claims and retcons.

Personally, I think he’s a poseur and an idiot- anyone who would disrespect Steve Ditko in such a manner but whine incessantly about Roy Thomas not getting more credit is not really a man I’d want to associate with.

There’s an old saying- “you can judge a man by who he associates with“- Roy Thomas and John Cimino cancel each other out when this logic is applied. For they’re both preening, conniving fanboys who seek to rewrite history to better suit their own stories.

Thomas: stop pushing Cimino and his band in your magazine. Editor or not, no one buys a magazine that’s reportedly devoted to comics history to hear about shitty Hardcore bands from the nineties.

Cimino: stop pushing the untrue narrative that Thomas is the “King” of Comics, was the co-creator with Stan, and that he created or even co-created characters that he didn’t. Stop ripping off chumps at comic conventions, stop taking selfies with your leathery, gaunt body and stop making doofus expressions in your photos. The world will be a better place.

Gosh, imagine if I were like Thomas and Cimino…! Why, I’d betray the several professionals that confided in me off the record at Baltimore Comic Con 2022 about how insufferable Thomas and Cimino are, I’d betray the three interviewers/podcasters I e-mailed with who felt Cimino ruined their content, I’d betray the five fans I spoke to who went to meet Thomas and felt Cimino “barged into” their experience.

Maybe it’s not just me? I don’t know. Far be it for me to dare criticize the creator of Wolverine. Fucking shameful.

If you don’t call credit theft out, you’re enabling it. Roy Thomas had a hand in a group process, and his contributions were almost entirely just borrowing the names, costumes, and characteristics of pre-existing Golden Age characters. He has been given a second life due to the machinations of his idiot manager whose record beforehand was not exactly impressive.

If nothing else, we can at least count on The Roy Boyzz for plenty of laughs in the years ahead. Comedic duos consisting of dishonest buffoons‘ date back to the 1800s‘. In this sense, Thomas and Cimino are carrying on a legacy more appropriate to their talents.