“This Really Diminishes Him and Makes Him Look Pathethic”- A Look At Industry and Fan’s Opinion On Roy Thomas’s Grand Theft

I know, some of you are thinking “still with the Roy Thomas coverage…? Why, it almost sounds personal at this point!” Allow me to assure you, dear reader, that there is no obsessive interest in the misdeeds of the Rascally One and his vile hangers-on and enablers.

It’s simply that Thomas continues his celebration tour and, with a film coming out next month (as of this writing) and other, more established publications than this lowly blog refusing to cover Thomas’s antics, it falls to your man here to continue reporting on the sordid trail Team Roy leaves behind.

Since the story seems to have gone cold in fandom and comics-related media, I’ve decided to upload this compendium I’ve been holding off on publishing until we’d had about three months on from the initial story break, to sort of weigh upon the general consensus from professionals and fans alike in regard to Thomas’s co-creator credit announcement and his general behavior surrounding the news.

I expected some people to tip-toe and rationalize and refuse to comment altogether. And I can understand that to a large degree, especially with as challenging as the comics industry has become for professionals. Some creators remaining silent were notable however, like the usually outspoken Tony Isabella (when it pertains to him not receiving the proper credit), and several that contribute to TwoMorrows magazines.

But- to any almost pleasant surprise– most people thought this was a slimy act, and Thomas’s defiant, almost offended tone in the horrid Forbes excuse for an interview pushed people even further away from his side. I do sincerely wonder how many fanboys care enough to take a moral stand though, as it seems Thomas is still making a killing on that convention circuit.

Time will tell. In the meantime, here is a mere selection of the responses from pros and fans alike in response to Marvel’s announcement and Bobbie Chase’s thought-provoking initial post.

• “This is ghoulish behavior. You’re not going to change the mind of anyone in this industry, as we’ve been discussing very little other than this for the last two weeks and we’re all in accord: staff editors get bragging rights but no official co-creator credits. That’s not just me saying that: that’s the entire goddamned industry, and not one comics pro has come forth to defend Roy. Not one. Because this is universally held to be shameful stolen-valor behavior on Roy’s part.” – Mark Waid, April 13th, 2024

• “I do not believe that Roy Thomas co-created Wolverine any more than Julius Schwartz co-created Ra’s al Ghul. I think the whole thing is pretty lousy. Like any great editors they had ideas, concepts and suggestions but it was the writers and artists (Len Wein, John Romita, Herb Trimpe for the former; Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams for the latter) who deserve the credit.” – Dan Greenfield, 13th Dimension June 21st, 2024

• “I was an editor at Marvel, and I always understood that if I created stuff as a staff employee, it belonged to the company. No editor should get further remuneration for coming up with material for their freelancers to work on. That is part of the job. They got a salary for that.” – Larry Hama

• “I don’t know that it’s such a conundrum. As a staffer, Roy deserves no financial remuneration for co-creating the character. As a writer, he can give himself that credit all he wants because it’s the truth.” – Fabian Nicieza

• “I’ve been stunned watching this whole thing happen, thinking that this credit-grabbing by Roy is at best being mishandled. It seems it’s not at best though, it’s at worst. I’ve always admired and respected Roy for what he HAS done in comics and continues to do with Alter Ego as a historian. But this move absolutely tarnishes his legacy and may do so in a way that NOT claiming credit will eventually seem as a far better move.” – Andy Mangels

• “The rules are simple: Those who outlive, make the history. Ask Shakespeare about Richard the III sometimes.” – Ty Templeton

• “The details haven’t changed, but that Roy is claiming to be “the co-creator of Wolverine” on the basis of those details has.
  While Len was alive, I don’t remember Roy ever claiming co-creator status, just telling the story as a part of “how comics get made.” It’s apparently only recently that Roy and his PR guy/manager cooked up a badly written press-release/interview that claimed co-creator status. And something pushed Marvel into changing the movie credits; we don’t know for sure that it’s Roy, but the timing is suspicious.” – Kurt Busiek

• “I’m not sure anybody is disputing Roy did that or that he doesn’t deserve credit for doing it, what he doesn’t deserve is co-creator credit and some of Christine’s money as making those types of suggestions were a part of his editor job.
  As your (Peter Sanderson’s) work also points out that Dave Cockrum has previously suggested a vampire-ish character named Wolverine. Plus there was FOOM #2 (1973) with an interview of Roy in it where a fan suggested the name for a character. So Roy was likely hearing Wolverine as a name from multiple places.” – Jamie Coville

• “That’s always been a rule I believe in…Editors make small or very large contributions to the work, but the work, the credit, and the compensation for writers and artists shouldn’t be diminished by it.” – Paul Levitz

• “Given Roy’s many contributions to comics, this really diminishes him and makes him look pathetic. Also—I say this as a Wikipedia editor—altering entries means bupkes. I haven’t checked out the altered entries, but I wonder if the updates use sourcing and, if they do, what that sourcing might be.” – Tom Heintjes, Hogan’s Alley

• “Marvel now assigns creator credit on the basis of involvement, no matter what the degree. Look up Alpha Flight and you will often find Chris Claremont and me listed as co-creators—and sometimes Chris as sole creator! —on the basis of Chris having been first to script them, and despite him having nothing to do with the actual development of the characters.
  It’s a far cry from when I started at Marvel. Then it was policy to deny any creator credit, for fear it would imply ownership.
  
• Creation in comics is often a drawn out, cumulative process. David Micheline and Todd Mcfarlane make some minor changes to an existing concept—mostly developed by Roger Stern—and claim creation of Venom. Roger himself is credited as creating Hobgoblin, tho the character is derived entirely from the Green Goblin. It’s something parallel to my complaints when someone adapting an existing character to another medium is credited as “creator”.
  And as for Wolverine—remember that Len’s concept was for an eighteen year old with claws that telescoped out of his gloves. And he disagreed quite strongly with how Dave and Chris developed the character.” – John Byrne, March 31st, 2024

• “Is this just the beginning of an evolution of saying the company created the characters? Staff = company. Keep stressing that aspect and keep repeating it, lessen the impact of the individual creators, eventually making a case for created by Marvel Comics, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Disney, so Disney can cut out any creator credits, payments, and rights? Wouldn’t surprise me at all.” – Andrew Pepoy

• “I like and respect Roy very much. I’ve gotten to know his manager John a little bit and I like him too. And to be fair to Roy, he’s been publicly discussing for many years now, starting long before Len and Herb died, how Wolverine was created. I was aware back in my days as a Marvel editor‐‐and that was a long time ago now–that Roy had suggested the basic elements of the character and then turned it over to Len and John Sr.
  But the fact that Roy was EIC at the time alone should preclude him from getting a co-creator credit and any additional financial compensation. Had he been working in a strictly freelance capacity in helping to create Wolverine, as co-writer, for example, then he would be entitled to both. As it stands, he should have only limited bragging rights.” – Glenn Greenberg

• “Very disappointed to hear this, knowing Len, he was selfless as an editor and writer constantly offering ideas and suggestions for the improvement of any character and story. He never asked for credit on things he didn’t actually write, he just loved being part of the creation. The credit for the creation should always go to those who executed the creation. Len, with John Sr. and Herb Trimpe wrote, designed, drew and created Wolverine. It should be that simple.” – Dan DiDio

• “I am aware of one Marvel editor from my time there who has been actively perusing a part the the creator credit and equity on a very popular character that appeared in a book for which they were the editor. My guess is it will only get easier now that Marvel/Disney has set this precedent.” – Brett Breeding

• “Staking a claim after all of the principal creators are dead and buried and can’t dispute you is an act of cowardice. If you weren’t a co-creator when they were alive–you’re not a co-creator now that they’re gone. This is some bullshit.” – Erik Larsen

• “This is a shameful decision and I’m truly sorry to see it come to this.” – Dan Jurgens

• “Creators get the credit, editors get the blame. That is the compact of the job, and those who cannot abide by it do dishonor to our profession. Don Draper had the right of it: “That’s what the money is for!” – Tom Brevoort

• “What has riled many about this new change in the credits is that it’s being made way after the act of creation and after Wein, Romita, Trimpe and even Stan Lee (who might have had something to say about it) are deceased. Only Roy is still with us.
  What do I think? I think Roy should get all the accolades he deserves for what he did contribute to the existence of a popular and valuable property. So should others who came along later and added to the mythos and popularity of that guy with the Adamantium claws. But co-creator credit? No.” – Mark Evanier

• “I know nothing of John (Cimino) and can’t speak to his relationship with Roy. I also haven’t researched the Wolverine situation. I can only speak to whatever small contributions I made during my years in comics, which is a separate issue, I guess. I was never a full editor — I chose to leave comics long before anything like that ever came close to happening — but during my few years on staff at Marvel I did engage in many brainstorming editorial conversations with writers and artists, including on some key issues you’d recognize, and have never publicly said anything about them. Being an editorial springboard was part of my job as an employee, and so I’ve never sought any credit for the twists and turns of plot which might have been altered due to my advice. Perhaps that answer isn’t an answer at all. But it’s all I’ve got.” – Scott Edelman

• “Having read the article, I don’t think Thomas’s suggestion to 1) call him Wolverine and 2) have him be Canadian are enough to warrant co-creator credit.
  Totally different situation from say…Gambit, where it’s understood that Jim Lee created the visuals for the character, despite not having drawn either of his first two appearances (X-Men Annual 14 or X-Men 266).” – Fan ‘Gatsby77’, CGC Message boards March 31st, 2024

• “I guess my biggest issue is (if I am reading the article correctly) Roy Thomas up and said he helped create Wolverine in 2019 (45 years after the character hit the comics), and he had waited until after 2 of the 3 already credited creators had died and the third was 89 years old. I’m not saying he did help create and I’m not saying he didn’t, but it isn’t like Wolverine just “blew up” in the last couple years, so why didn’t he claim to have created him back in the 80’s or 90’s?” – Fan ‘media_junkie’, CGC Message boards March 31st, 2024

• “Personally, Thomas created a fictitious metal, and that’s about it. Minor involvement in the evolution of the character.” – Ken Aldred, CGC Message boards April 5th, 2024

• “The sad part is Roy’s legend is strong enough without now taking credits away from dead people who can’t speak for themselves. He shouldn’t and doesn’t need to do stuff like this.” – Fan ‘Spiderbite’, DVDTalk Forums, March 31st, 2024

• “Sleazy tactic if we’re all being honest. It’s a bad look.” – Fan ‘PhantomStranger’, DVDTalk Forums, April 4th, 2024

• “He’s actually charging a fair bit for his signature at cons now. I believe he is at $20-$30 for an autograph now, maybe more for CGC items or anything Wolverine related. At the Big Apple Con last year, he had a limited edition (foil or holographic. I can’t remember) art print of The Incredible Hulk #181 that he was selling for somewhere around $60, so he’s already capitalizing on his connection to Wolverine without Marvel giving him any credit for creating him.” – Fan ‘movieguru’, DVDTalk Forums, April 16th, 2024

• “The other thing about the ‘creation’ of Wolverine is that he really didn’t become who we know of as ‘Wolverine‘ through ANY of those guys. That is more due to what Claremont and Byrne did with him.

• That’s why all of this is fairly sick because really, it’s not about ‘hey I created the characters you know and love!‘, it’s about the Money grab. All of those hack writers for Marvel during that time, were simply following Stan Lee’s lead just trying to grab credit for anything they could. It just goes to show how stupid comic book fans are to worship those fuckin’ slimy, money grabbers.” – Author & Historian Chuck Gower

• “Based on this Marvel should have no problem crediting Kirby as the creator of Spider-Man. There’s no real dispute Kirby came in with the name, the spider powers, the teenage orphan living with an aunt and uncle. That is considerably more than what Thomas is claiming he contributed to the Wolverine.” – Historian Patrick Ford

• “That is not collaborating. That’s telling someone, “Here. You go do all the work. When you’re done, tell me what it’s about, and I’ll crib some dialogue from the original source material, add some meaningless dialogue and captions that explain what’s already obviously visually drawn, and take half the money.” – Mark Maderosian

• “Dave Cockrum did far more to create Wolverine than Roy Thomas, but Marvel fails to acknowledge Cockrum in the creation of Wolverine.” – Historian Daniel Greenberg

Well, looks like the verdict is out to me. Maybe Stan Lee really was on point when he nicknamed Roy “The Rascally One“… but, you know- probably not. The point is, the majority view, the general consensus, the popular vote is AGAINST ROY THOMAS FOR TAKING ANY FORM OF CREATOR CREDIT FOR WOLVERINE.

You think he’d read the room; you think he’d soften his approach. But like every other time he feels slighted or wronged, Thomas lashes out like a chained dog- he continues to cling to his entitled behavior, he continues to fail to see anyone else’s point of view- and worst of all- he continues to benefit and profit from a corrupt, decadent machine that never seems to falter or age like its many beneficiaries do- Marvel’s corporate system of reaping the profits and deciding who to anoint with credit and notoriety, whether they earned it or not.

It’s disgusting and should upset anyone that ever cared about these characters, however briefly, however deeply. Please continue to share your feelings on what people like Roy Thomas and John Cimino are doing, all in order to sign more expensive photocopies of ancient comic book covers at fan fests. Speak out, because outrage does sometimes cause a turn.

The publishers, at least, mostly screwed the creator to their proverbial face, in the sense that they shamelessly did what they wanted with no concern for that creator’s feelings or efforts, even when those creators sought to fight them in court. Thomas, amazingly, is almost more sinister than the publishers and their corporate owners have been in that he systematically waited until his collaborators passed on before launching this campaign. Why should this wicked man reap all the glory at the end??

With thanks to Carr D’Angelo, Michael Hill, Andy Olsen, Christine Valada, Bobbie Chase, and Len Wein. Dedicated to my good friend and big bro, the great genius artist JAMES ROMBERGER. Give ’em Hell.