Don’t worry, friends- Old Reliable has finally returned.
Which in itself is quite a story- one much more interesting than the very topical issue we’re about to cover below- but, due to the pressing need to cut off utterly worthless excuses for sites like Bleeding Cool (ugh) from continuing to mine Four Color Sinners for content ideas, and, in the spirit of continuing our altruistic efforts in creating comprehensive reference guides for students of history, we will plunge in shortly to the latest in the long and sordid saga of The Rascally One and his continued poor decisions.
(That being said, do know that I will fully explain the abrupt return of FCS very soon. It involves a bona fide fan favorite comic creator and Eisner/Harvey Hall of Famer lecturing me before ______ and _____, before offering me ______ and becoming this site’s ______. I guess more pros really DO feel the same way. Also, friends of Cimino are threatening me on his behalf due to my habit of repeating actual documented statements! We’ve got some fun stuff ahead.)
If I may conclude with one statement, it’s that I greatly appreciate the hundreds of public comments about our work here on various online platforms. To know that I am considered the most gregarious and benevolent of comic history bloggers, really reinforces my commitment to go further, be bolder, and- most importantly- bring the receipts. Stay tuned and you’ll see.
While the aforementioned apocalypse of pop-ups website did a half-hearted attempt at compiling industry response to Thomas’s latest bold and misguided (if sincere- he believes them) comments on creatorship (after taking notes from our last compendium of quotes showcasing the general tone of popular opinion on Thomas’s late-stage antics), you’ll find over one hundred comments from industry veterans, historians, journalists, and fans alike sharing their honest displeasure and palpable disbelief at the blatant and ongoing credit theft campaign from Team Thomas.
The majority of general response is, as you might expect, against Thomas. To be fair, there were a handful of fans that thought Thomas had every right to expect co-creator credit though they were an extreme minority.
I fully admit it was extremely gratifying to see fans in Thomas’s own Cimino moderated Facebook Appreciation Group finally having enough, calling Thomas out, and abandoning the cult.
Otherwise, it was heartening- really- to see people call out a selfish lack of awareness, the enablement of John Cimino, and the continued disrespect towards Len Wein and Christine Valada. There is hope yet for real reform and real awareness about these archaic and sinister industry practices- so long as people are made aware.
I don’t agree 100% with some of these comments- for example, some people believe it is entirely John Cimino somehow manipulating a confused, doddering old Roy, which I don’t think is the case- and, in a few instances, I consolidated two separate comments from the same source. Buckle up!
“Ah, Roy Thomas. I used to love you, but it’s all over now. I hope it was worth it, because I’ll never read your work again.” – Ty Templeton
“In case you are wondering, I am 100% Team Len Wein/Christine Valada. No, 1000%.” – Gail Simone
“Gimme a break.” – Heidi MacDonald
“That is a painful article to read, on multiple levels. ‘I am really ok with coming last in the grouping, so ok I’ve written this whole passive aggressive public article to make sure everyone knows I should have been first. Just so not ok.” – Fiona Robertson
“That’s the end of his credibility. Any shred of dignity that he had left is now gone and his legacy is now a credit stealing pathetic contemptible weasel. If he had an ounce of integrity, he would have started this crusade while those who did the actual work were still alive to call him out on it.” – Gregory Wright
“Good God, Roy Thomas has become a pathetic asshole. Can some of my influences NOT turn into needy dickheads? Please?” – Marc Andreyko
“Just straight-up fucking pathetic.” – Mark Waid
“With all of the credit Roy Thomas deservedly receives and enjoys for all if his own outstanding work and creations; watching him try — as editor — to grab a shared credit with Wolverine’s actual creators (all of whom have now passed away) fifty years after the fact, but “coincidentally” just when Wolverine is hugely trending as a revenue-generating engine, is bizarre deplorable, and just plain SAD!” – Jo Duffy
“Roy Thomas waited for the actual creators to die before demanding that he was the real creator and they were hirelings.” – Gene Ha
“It would be worth getting tossed out of a convention to tell this comb-over douchebag off to his face.” – Jim Van Heuklon
“Glad you’re proud of that headline!” – Carr D’Angelo
“He’s always been that way, but he’s gotten worse, which is certainly being aggravated by John Cimino’s pushiness.” – Devlin Thompson
“Seems one of Thomas’s well-earned claims to fame is his history of making unearned claims to fame. When shitting the bed ceases to be a unfortunate facet of flawed humanity & hubris and instead threatens to overshadow one’s entire legacy.” – Bill Sienkiewicz
“So disappointing. It’s just so petty. They gave him what he wanted, but he wants his name first? Get bent!” – Sean Harklerode
“This just makes me angry. I never thought of him as a giant, but I can’t believe how tiny he turned out to be.” – Derek McCaw
“For 49 years I can say that I was friends with the Wolverine creators, Len Wein & Herb Trimpe. I met and admired another on the Wolverine creator chain, John Romita Sr. They are all passed away, no longer with us. At this point I have to believe that the counsel being given to the former EIC is terribly compromised whoever that may be. IMHO, someone should have thrown themselves in front of this article before it was sent. This is outrageous.”- Rob Liefeld
“I like Roy personally, but the editor’s job is to anonymously shepherd creative work through the pipeline. I’ve never taken credit for the work of others. Christine Valada, I’m with you on this.” – Buzz Dixon
“I find his behavior deplorable. Beyond questions about enjoying his past work, it taints his current work on ‘Alter Ego’.” – Andy Mangels
“The writing was on the wall. As soon as it was known Marvel called Len Wein’s widow, Christine Valada, to tell her ‘Houseroy’ was now co-creator, it was pretty much a lock that this mess would unfold. The rest is Houseroy being Houseroy, Kirby tried to warn all of us.” – Joe Fiore
“I’m so sorry Roy is choosing to go in this direction. He gave me my first professional break in mainstream comics. I’ll always be grateful to him for that.” – Wendy Pini
“Roy has so many genuine credits to his name. This is just heartbreaking.” – Jim Valentino
“I think that guy John Cimino is manipulating Roy like those handlers did (with) Stan Lee. When talentless hacks manipulate creative people, especially when they see money, it’s a dangerous thing.” – Mark Belktron
“He’s ridiculous for this. It’s all categorically untrue.” – DaiQuan Cain
“Sometimes you live long enough to see Houseroy become Funky Flashman.” – Keith Howell
“Len Wein created Wolverine. Chris Claremont and John Byrne ran with him, and had more to do with making him a headliner, the most famous member of the X-Men, but Len Wein created him.
Roy Thomas has had a significantly noteworthy footprint himself, but in pulling strings to snatch himself a belated byline, and by now making snotty remarks that his name should appear first, he is behaving badly, very badly.
He was not a co-creator of Wolverine just because he was fulfilling the editorial role. That is not how this works. It has never been how this works. I knew Len a little bit. I liked him. He deserved better than this. Roy Thomas has been acting like Bob Kane. This is no compliment.” – Adam-Troy Castro
“What’s next? Martin Goodman getting a co-creator credit on everything Stan and Jack created? He did give them the assignments after all…” – Kevin Brown
“I think Cimino pushes him to make these claims…” – Jim Kosmicki
“The actual villain of the piece is right there on the (Alter Ego) cover… John Cimino. That’s Roy’s pushy press agent who appears to be abusing his role, much the same way Stan Lee was as he got older.” – John Simcoe
“I basically like Roy as a person, but he’s got some quirks that I’m not a fan of. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he’s on the spectrum, given his decades of obsessive continuity-fiddling to try to make everything fit together, and I suspect that this whole credit kerfuffle has more to do with what he sees as accuracy than ego or money driven. The fact that editors traditionally don’t take credit is just a foolish technicality in his very orderly mind. This is, after all, a guy who wrote a whole issue of The Invaders just to explain why Namor wore a different color and style of bathing suit in one page of a Submariner story some 30 years earlier. He’s obsessive about details that nobody else cares about, often to the detriment of his stories.” – Jim MacQuarrie
“Absolute moron. Holding on to something that’s not his. Carrying on Stan’s legacy of taking credit for shit he had nothing to do with.” – Chip Cataldo
“So Wolverine first appeared in print in 1974. Roy Thomas only needed 50 years to decide he was the co-creator. He’s either a liar or very slow to anger.” – Steve Darnall
“It’s weird too, because I think I remember an issue of his ‘Alter Ego‘ magazine where he and writer Gerry Conway discuss their unused X-Men movie screenplay. IIRC, they didn’t seem to have the same level of respect for the source material that the later filmed screenplays had. I think they even did some comedic bits with Wolverine that I thought seemed out of character…” – Abel Padilla
“What a sad and embarrassing way to end up. Some ‘legacy’.” – James Dawson
“Not so much a reputation tarnished so much as entirely rendered into garbage… TwoMorrows should consider him a liability at this point.” – David Alexander McDonald
“Roy’s pretty old and I’ve heard the guy that manages/handles him is an opportunistic sleazebag, so I honestly wonder if this is entirely Roy’s doing. I’ve heard a lot of people who have been around Roy and his handler that it seems like a slimebag trying to exploit an elderly man.” – Samuel Jay
“More and more, I’m understanding why Kirby created the characters of Funky Flashman and Houseroy.” – Erich Reinstadler
“I was at HeroesCon one year and I was getting him to sign a copy of ‘X-Men’ that he had written, and Neal Adams had drawn… it already had Neal’s signature on it and Roy Thomas saw that and then literally sat there and told me that he actually did all the work on those books. I just chalked it up to dementia.” – RJ Marchese
“And Thomas’s hatchet man appears to be weaseling his way into Gerry Conway’s career now, too. Is this an elder abuse thing, like what was going with Stan Lee the last few years of his life…? I mean, two writers now?” – Rob Jensen
“I’ve decided I do NOT appreciate Roy this much. I suppose we could write this off as the ramblings of a sad old man with delusions of grandeur, but Roy has already cemented his place in comics. All of a sudden he wants to die on this hill?? “My name should be first” sounds like such a Stan Lee thing to say. Houseroy indeed.” – Jason Marcy, departing Roy Thomas Appreciation Facebook Group
“Leaving this group from this statement. And his manager is an ass.” – Joe Fixit, departing Roy Thomas Appreciation Facebook Group
“Yeah, I just left the ‘Roy Thomas Appreciation Group‘ on Facebook in protest because of this. To be perfectly frank, I don’t appreciate Roy Thomas anymore. He’s burned down almost all of the goodwill I’ve had for him for the last four decades.” – John Trumbull
“The regrettable thing is Thomas HAS done a lot for comics and comics fandom but he’s decided to trash his legacy over this. When he dies, this is what will be remembered.” – Rick Roberts, leaving Roy Thomas Appreciation Facebook Group
“Well, we all know what Kirby thought about Roy… and the King was never wrong.” – Geoff Klein
“I have seen A LOT of comic creators say that Thomas is dead to them. Loving it.” – Michael D. Flohr
“What he gets is John Cimino’s lips planted on his ass… I think Roy is insecure in an era of reduced relevance and eating up flattery from a con man manager who is sweet talking an aging, insecure writer into pushing everyone away so Cimino can “collect” Roy like a slabbed book and own him without any competition. All Cimino had to do is play sycophant and nudge Roy into egotistically burning every bridge with anyone who isn’t Cimino.” – Patrick Gerard
“I’m pretty certain this is Cimino’s doing. A few years ago, I was at Phoenix Con with Briant Augustyn (trivia panels, contests, etc.) and I went to chat with Roy a few tables down from us. I talked to him for several minutes, basically asking for his blessing on a JSA vs. Invaders chess set I was making. Roy was happily all-in on the idea, if I’d make one for him… suddenly Cimino showed up, very surly, wanting to know what I was doing there.
I gave him the cliff notes, and he said I wouldn’t do it without paying Roy an advance (on something I wasn’t selling) and would need to get lawyers involved. I said that all I was asking for was Roy’s acknowledgement (which I didn’t need)- Cimino got even more surly and said I needed to leave the table and stop bothering Roy. I thanked Roy for his time, Roy thanked me for thinking of him and told Cimino to give me Roy’s email. Cimino scrawled it on a Post-it and said “He’ll never see it” when he handed it to me. I told Cimino he was an asshole, and he sneered and told me to get lost.” – Gary St. Lawrence
“Oh, the ‘thanks’ the industry wants to give that leech (Cimino).” – Evan Meadow
“I place a lot more of the blame on his media mis-manager (Cimino).” – Jim MacQuarrie
“He was always very thin-skinned. Would write into magazines and fanzines whenever someone criticized his work.” – Mindless-Run6297, reddit comment
“Roy was the editor of FOOM so he must have seen the Andy Olsen submission.” – bannock4ever, reddit comment
“This is a very tacky grab at a piece of the recognition of Wolverine and the credit for the overwhelming box office the film is enjoying. It’s a bad look all around Roy, and you are killing any goodwill you may have built up over the years. Read the room, man.” – JohnWComicsGuy, reddit comment
“Roy Thomas seems hellbent on destroying his own reputation… why Thomas hooked up with Cimino is beyond my comprehension.” – oisipf, reddit comment
“After suffering thru nearly all of Roy’s comics, whilst reading the whole Marvel run, this statement is as longwinded and verbose as I expected it to be.” – Siege187, reddit comment
“Reminder that even other writers and editors think Thomas is a total asshole for doing this.” – ContraryPython, reddit comment
“If anyone’s name should be first it’s Len Wein.” – DarthHM, reddit comment
“Be happy your name showed up at all. For fuck’s sake, they can’t even give KIRBY the proper respect.” – Akidnamedkenny, reddit comment
“Co-Creator”. This dude is shameless.” – B-Train42, reddit comment
“Just when you think Roy can’t be more of a conniving asshole, he manages to show you he can. He definitely exerts more effort to be considered a creator than he could ever muster for, you know, ACTUALLY creating unique, original characters, instead of just reworking Golden Age characters that someone else came up with. Or swiping an idea submitted by a kid to a magazine he edited.” – Lance Zurek
“Speaking with a few folks at SDCC, I got a very strong impression (read: Clark Kent is winking level) they really wanted to say Cimino is the real bad guy and is manipulating Thomas, but for various reasons including legal, they couldn’t actually say it.” – Tom Galloway
“Kirby’s slam on him in MISTER MIRACLE wasn’t far from the mark.” – Barry Buchanan
“Jack was right about Houseroy the whole time.” – Paul Greer
“It’s weird how he waited until literally all the ACTUAL creators died until he started pushing this absurd and unprecedented claim. I think Marvel acquiesced because it opens the door for them to erode creators’ rights.” – Jesse Liberty
“Yeah, seriously- he couldn’t resist trashing all three ‘Deadpool‘ movies during his little whinefest. But Thomas grew up thinking that ‘Tales from the Crypt‘ and ‘Mad‘ were the worst titles being published at the time, so I doubt the old boy has ever had a good sense of humor.” – Paul Same
“And out in fandom (and on eBay), fans consider the first Wolverine prototype to be in FOOM #2 in 1973 created by a fan on a page filled with new superhero ideas. Whether that is valid or not, the issue sells for hundreds of dollars…” – James Van Hise
“Anyone met with him in person lately without Cimino whispering in his ear or answering for him? I wonder if there is some elder abuse going on here.” – Michael Climek
“Cimino is legit creepy. I’ve seen some of his friends-only Facebook posts and it’s just weird. Roys certainly learned the “have weird grifters attach themselves to your coattails in your old age” lesson.” – Tristan Elwell
“I think John Cimino, his constant creepy shadow, supports his delusions.”- Jim Bosomworth
“I’d bet real money that Cimino wrote and pitched this article ‘on Roy’s behalf’ solely to highlight how he helped the creator get credit as an attempt to attract more clients. Even though Roy Thomas doesn’t have the best reputation in the industry (and he probably believed that he deserves this credit), I wouldn’t be surprised if Cimino is manipulating the situation to help himself out. The ‘thank you’ in the article to Cimino stinks as even more self-aggrandizing and an obvious pitch to other creators he’s looking to sign on as clients.” – Tim Cifelli
“I guess he’s laughing all the way to the bank, but I’ve lost all respect fo rhim. If you’re going to make this play then you do it when Wein, Trimpe, and Romita are alive to either support your claim… or not. The fact he waited until they were all dead and right before a giant Wolverine movie came out tells me all I need to know.” – Keven Gardner
“Man, this has really blown up. Roy Thomas is a legend and whatever is motivating him to seek this is certainly working to tarnish his legacy. I sure hope it was worth it.” – Froilan Gardner
“It’s ridiculous and legacy ruining.” – Gregory Wright
“I’ve never heard of Roy being connected in any way with Wolverine and I’ve been collecting comics since 1970. It’s interesting that Wolverine’s Wiki entry has Roy listed as co-creator but doesn’t mention why. Claremont and Cockrum had more to do with the character than Roy.” – John Fabian
“Wow, even trashed the current ‘Deadpool‘ movie while he was trashing his lack of a more grandiose credit… screw this guy, at least he made it clear before he dies, he’s a sleazy backstabber with delusional thoughts.” – Paul Same
“Roy Thomas and John Cimino are full of Orwellian shit.” – Rob Jensen
“This article is disappointing to read. I worked with Roy for years and enjoyed every moment of it. I had hundreds of hours of conversations with him, and I don’t recall him going on about co creating Wolverine-even when writing him in as a character in one of the books I edited. I went to a small comic con in NYC a few years ago and saw Roy after 27 years. He was signing Hulk #181 prints, and I thought it was odd.
As he has gotten on in age, I fear the handler(s) might be filling his head with plenty. One of them seemed pretty sketchy-but I am only basing that on first and presumably last impressions. I will focus on the good memories I have.” – Mike Rockwitz
“I’ve been a Roy fan/defender for years but it’s getting harder & harder with this shit.” – Daniel Lisman
“This is such a bizarrely aggressive comment from Roy. It reads like he was intentionally saying this to bait all the people angry at him for the co-credit in the first place. It went from “I deserve co-credit” to “these other guys built on my work“, which is an unnecessarily spiteful thing to say. I don’t get what else is going on in Roy’s life but there must be something for him to be like this… not that it excuses it in any way.” – Med
“Roy Thomas waited until everyone who can refute him was dead, and then said this. This article reads like a petulant child taking an ‘I told you so‘ victory lap that is truly petty and meaningless considering how we got to this point.”- Jody Parsons
“Is that (Cimino) the clown he does those videos with over on Tucci’s YouTube channel?” – Derek Bossler
“Thomas exchanged to possibility of becoming “beloved elder statesman and creator” and “living history” for… what? a terribly meager royalty? a forced creator credit everyone questions? he basically burned down his legacy with this… it gives ammo to all his detractors who have been finally proven right (cheers to Kirby and Adams, wherever they are).” – Fo Leon
“I think it’s the lack of self-awareness that always surprises me. Apparently then, he lacks people around him to say, “Roy, you got a credit you didn’t deserve at the end of the litany. Just fly under the radar, stop reigniting this, and stop making yourself look worse.” – Mark Marderosian
“There was a time I felt slightly bad for Kirby mocking him in his NEW GODS books. Then Roy Thomas opens his mouth, and you wish Kirby would have DONE MORE. This is delusional bullshit. The unjustified credit and his gall to want top billing for it.” – Michael Mora
“One wonders how much of this was Roy’s original idea, and how much was put there by his management hoping to boost his convention appearances and appearance fees.” – A. Hippo
“That’s because Roy Thomas is bound and determined to destroy his 50 plus year legacy in comic books for some odd reason.” – Jay Bayliss
“Actually, there should be a GoFundMe for Len Wein’s widow to sue Disney to remove Roy Thomas’s name. It’s a dangerous precedent for anyone who has a creator credit on any Marvel Comic, and it will reduce creator participation in the future if not stopped.” – Rik Offenberger
“He already had a very respectable legacy, and all he’s done here is ensure that this move overshadows it. Especially gross since Wein, Trimpe and Romita have all passed and can’t even respond to this.” – Bry Kotyk
“Don’t forget Len!” – Gary Cohn
“I knew Len. Was friends with him and talked comics every Wednesday. This is the first I’m hearing of Roy Thomas.” – Quint Jenkins
“There’s something refreshing about one of your childhood idols reminding you that you’ve NEVER been that desperate for attention.” – Brandon Jerwa
“Pretty sure the majority of his legacy was rewriting history, anyway. Glad to see people finally taking notice.” – Josh Adams
“Stunning comments from him. Stunning.” – Don Jonescu
“I’m fully aware of his claims and I find it staggering that not only does he want co-creation as an editor, but suddenly thinks he should be listed first, before Len or anybody else. I like Roy, he’s been on my show, but this is a bad look. I’m not going to say anything more, but this isn’t the right way to do things.” – David Finn
“Oh, for fuck’s sake, Roy Thomas is grasping at straws. He was an editor, we’re all just seeing a cash grab by an old man and his sleazebag manager. So, he had the name, a few other details that were part of the equation… he was an Editor. I’ll talk to other fans at shows and the collective response has been, ‘why should we care?’, and wouldn’t even cross the street for him. Besides Len and Herb and Romita were decent human beings outside of comics not some old gremlin who is demanding everyone kiss his non-existent ring. Hope karma catches up with him.” – Tom Novak
“As a fan of all of the people referenced it seems to me in poor taste to do this after all the men involved except Roy are dead. It smacks of how Bob Kane messed over Bill Finger for so long.” – Will Mahoney
“Another nail in the legacy of Roy Thomas!” – Bob Luedke
“He didn’t create the character. He was the editor on the book Wolverine first appeared in.” – Don F Stout
“See, it works both ways, right? Like, if the Vision ever shows up again, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby should get top billing for creating the original one, then Stan Lee, for suggesting that the new one be an android, then Thomas and Buscema, for a revamp of the old concept. I mean, this is Thomas’ most famous ‘creation’ but he even looks mostly like the first version.” – Ron Chevrier
“He’s a hack.” – Phelipe Goncalves
“This is so much worse than I knew about. Cimino even claims Thomas created Conan, Robert E Howard be damned. Jesus.” – Michael Climek
“I’ve always been a huge fan of Roy but all of this is disgusting and I’m really sad that he’s behaving like this.” – Barry Reese
“Roy has said some stuff in recent years that’s made me think he became a bit of a crank. It’s sad.” – C Christopher Hart
“Pretty pathetic. And of course, his promoter weasels his way into the picture…” – Richard Pachter
“That’s what happens when you ride on coattails.” – Jon Clarke
“He can suck a big one. I honestly loved Roy for his actual contributions in the 60s’ and 70s’ but this is some bullshit trying to usurp a creator’s legacy after his death, when he was just an editor. I have worked with Marvel Editors, their suggestions were not a creation.” – Danny Donovan
“When being proud of an amazing body of work is overshadowed by wanting to grab paydays for something you had a passing comment about, at best. Take your dollars to your grave and sully everything else.” – Shawn Mallory
“Me first!” Seriously? What an absolute disgrace. I used to admire this guy so much.” – Rich Hurley
“This mess just shows that Roy took all the wrong lessons from Stan- taking credit for work others had done.” – Ed Moore
“Houseroy has some hubris that surpasses Bob Kane.” – Justin Elliott
“He shouldn’t be listed at all, and he is complaining he is fourth?” – John Ferrigno
“What a loser. “He edited therefore he created him! Him!“- written by himself.” – Noah Brown
“I am a fan of Roy’s, but this claim on Wolverine is distasteful and flies in opposition to what most editors do, and the need to be listed first is just arrogant…” – Scott Stem
“It’s so easy to read the article and see what Roy was really talking about. Most people won’t even care because they’ll just follow orders or be too afraid to say anything. But I don’t worry about them. Why would I? Roy and I live great lives and his fans all over the world appreciate his contributions to pop culture and their lives.
Plus, there are other creators out there that use this drama because they have dishonest personal agendas. You have to ask yourself why do some of them have such a grudge about Roy getting his credit since it’s been public record since 1982? And he’s not asking for ANY money either! There’s always more to the story folks. Don’t believe the masses. And FYI, to their dismay, we are NEVER stopping!” – Big John Cimino
“Fact: Roy replaced Stan Lee. Had Stan Lee demanded HE be given first credit no one would’ve batted an eyelash. So WHY is Roy receiving all this backlash when he was in the same position Stan once was in? If you can’t respect the man then at least respect the position Roy once had. I like to think of myself as a very fair and impartial person but I cannot understand why people are treating Roy this way.” – Alex Wright
“I think that John Cimino’s loyalty, no matter where you end up in your opinions, is a trait to be commended.” – Ed Catto
Remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions. Also remember that the main crux of Four Color Sinners is to collect exact quotes and recorded statements. Claims from associates of Thomas and Cimino saying that I am lying about anything presented is both dishonest and petty. It reminds me of something Groucho Marx once said: “Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?”
I honestly admit I have a sort of befuddled pseudo-respect to Thomas right now- for his undying loyalty to Cimino (I’ve often said Thomas seemed to have no adult friends), and his stubborn need to double down and go even more nuclear when nearly the entire industry is speaking out against them.
In a way, that industry also should shoulder some of the blame- much like their creative practices, they never take the initiative on anything until its trendy. If more had spoken out about Thomas and Cimino five years ago perhaps, then possibly we wouldn’t be here now and people like Christine Valada wouldn’t have to suffer the anguish from having her husband’s legacy diluted.
Thomas wanted credit- he got it. His name wasn’t first, so he had a tantrum. Now he has almost certainly guaranteed that this era of his sixty plus year career will be cemented as what he is mostly remembered for.
An indulgent, self-absorbed and petty little man with a limited perception forever colored by his childhood, long since disintegrated. Demanding more attention by crying “mine! mine!” like a toddler.
The Forever Boy, indeed.
Our previous article on Thomas’s Hollywood Reporter rants: https://fourcolorsinners.com/2023/08/21/if-they-didnt-want-to-accept-that-they-were-free-to-work-for-some-other-company-looking-at-the-roy-thomas-hollywood-reporter-rebuttals/
Four Color Sinners 
Welcome back! Missed your columns…!
Thanks for this compilation. I am thoroughly and completely amazed at how spot-on Jack Kirby has been in his work; time and again, especially with predictions. “Their endless kind,” indeed.
FACT: If someone goes through their whole day, and every different person they meet treats them like an asshole, then that person should consider who is the constant common denominator in that equation.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thank you Mr. M. I agree completely.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Johnny thinks we’re dismayed, but personally I love the growing industry response to his and Houseroys BS so am selfishly admitting I look forward to more pros and fans calling them out LOL! Glad to see you back!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Yeah, it shows the mentality of John Cimino that he thinks “haters are my motivators” and that people are ‘dismayed’ in the way he thinks. People are disgusted, sure. But he lacks the emotional maturity or capacity for empathy to grasp why anyone else would be upset- because, like his overseer, he’s *entitled*. And entitled people never get it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
from Larry Hama…
LikeLiked by 2 people
Just don’t try to tell Larry Hama that Houseroy and Funky follow the same playbook, because Funky has a better way with people and was nice to him.
LikeLiked by 1 person
An excellent point Sir. Still, that comment to Hama that he can only do “Martial Arts stuff” is so blatantly racist- it’s obviously because Hama is Asian, right? I am trying to remember what he did circa 1974 and I know he did “Wulf the Barbarian” for Atlas/Seaboard. Even if Hama was doing martial art related stories, it’s still ridiculous. And Hama was a legit Vietnam vet and judo expert who had been on Broadway and Thomas spoke to him like that. How long can people defend such a guy?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, it was Roy’s Cal Massey moment.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The same guy that feels a need to share with his audience in Alter Ego that he REFUSES to capitalize ‘Black’ when describing African-Americans because ‘White’ isn’t ALSO capitalized.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you. I was asleep at 12:34 AM hence me missing this exchange.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m glad you’re still on the case. That’s an impressive collection but what’s remarkable to me is that very few of these people will take Stan Lee to task for the same transgression. Thomas was complicit in Lee’s credit grab after the death of Jack Kirby (and clearly learned from it).
I believe Thomas is fully aware of what he’s doing, not just being led around by Cimino. And where is the outrage at Marvel, who have perpetually encouraged this culture of stealing from the talent to reward their “company men”?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I agree completely- I think it’s misguided sentiment that allows former fans to completely blame John Cimino. I’ve read some Cimino articles pre-involvement with Roy where he was actually quite balanced and honest about Kirby’s contributions so it’s quite a turnaround. Cimino certainly pushed the things Roy always felt he was entitled to but held back on, that’s for sure- but Thomas does not come off as confused or led in any capacity. So, he is responsible for his actions and words. I do think Cimino has sincere sentiment and love for Roy, and he is riding high being a regular contributor to ALTER EGO, etc.- but if he really cares he should consider trying to reign Roy in just a bit with things like this- he should be tactical about presentation and how things can come off. That might be hoping for too much I admit.
LikeLiked by 1 person
loved this… saw the roy gang was getting tough over the internet with you on sienkiewicz’s post… respect for holding your own… wonder if the House of Mouse is gonna have any public response to this.. somebody has to go an intervention with roy at this point…
LikeLiked by 2 people
Yes, it was honestly amazing. I was being given veiled threats, told I would be “humbled”, and Bolerjack (‘Hairspray’) couldn’t respond honestly to the fact that he enables Cimino, so after posting memes he blocked me. I was told I “don’t want to meet us”, meaning presumably- the Roy Boyzzz, who have a number of group portraits available on social media. I challenged Cimino and he doesn’t get to respond by proxy as I told them. Secondly, the guys I’d bring to a *rumble* are all guys from boxing gyms- it’s literally laughable. It ended with me being told that I could keep pursuing this (meaning, my reporting on Thomas) or I could “let it go” and “the choice is up to you”- a warning and a threat by anyone’s definition.
These clowns that live vicariously through pop culture give themselves away. They claim to “know all about me”- they don’t know that I’ve worked in the pop culture industry, they apparently don’t know I’ve worked in the boxing industry, they apparently don’t know that I’m a former amateur boxing champion who was taught to fight by stern Black Muslims in inner city Philadelphia while they were jerking off to ‘The Phantom Menace’. I do not present myself as a bad ass by any means and have even said on this blog, twice, that it’s possible Cimino might kick my ass. I mean- I don’t think so, and neither do four different vendors at various cons who have interacted with us both- but look, I’m certainly not going to be humbled by THOSE GUYS. So, I suppose they know by now that I did not heed their threat. But it was screenshot and I’m glad you saw it, since Bolerjack blocked me which isn’t a surprise. I don’t block anybody- if anyone pro Cimino wanted to defend him or even criticize me, I’d engage with them and have a discussion, it wouldn’t need to have threats. But these guys know- they KNOW- that they’re liars and grifters and I will continue to say it because it’s factually documented. So, what could they discuss?
“The ball is in your court. Drop it or pursue it. It’s up to you. (finger point emoji)” I think it’s amazing that, due to an article quoting aging comic book people, I’ve got Star Wars dorks sending statements like that. Thanks for the kind words otherwise. I don’t think Marvel is going to intervene, though I was told by reliable sources that Marvel did ask Roy to tone down his comments PRE film release.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Glad to see you’re back, Will!
Did Houseroy not learn from the master? He should have known to cover his tracks back 50 years ago and write a book full of bullshit lies (‘Origins of 70’s Marvel Comics?’). No wonder Lee didn’t have the faith to make Thomas the ONLY person in charge after he stepped down…
Yes, I have to add a correction to all the people who think Houseroy was Lee’s replacement – Lee actually had THREE replacements at the time. But hey, I’m going to prove it by doing it the way way YOU do it, Will, and SHOW them in Houseroy’s own words!
“I don’t recall the exact date or even month. I think that’s because Stan tried to give me the job in a kind of half-assed way. When he managed to get himself the job of Publisher, taking it away from Martin Goodman’s son Chip, by going directly to the people at Cadence Industries, he didn’t really want to relinquish his major claim to fame, which was of course being the creative force behind Marvel Comics. It wasn’t enough that it was at least as much my idea as anyone else’s to stick ‘Stan Lee Presents’ all over the stories: he wanted to continue to be thought of as the editor, even if he never read the stories. So he tried to divide his job between Verpoorten, Frank Giacoia (as ‘assistant art director’, so he could retain the ‘Art Director title), and myself. He really just wanted me to be ‘story editor,’ and the Soapbox which announces my appointment reflects that fully. But I was determined to be editor or nothing. So he divided the authority between the three of us, which gave us the kind of unwieldy committee system which DC has often suffered from.”
– Roy Thomas, The Comics Journal #61, Winter Special 1981
So based on this evidence we also need to add Frank Giacoia and John Verpoorten to the list of Wolverine Co-creators, because they were a part of the creation and approval process as well! I think if we work hard enough we might get everyone who worked in the building at the time, a co-creator credit, right down to the nightly custodian!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thank you, Mr. G, I will explain further the catalyst for me coming back and it wasn’t exactly altruistic, but it does appear that my work is far from done…! I look forward to that book you told me about more than you can know.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Cimino even claims Thomas created Conan“? Oh god, when did that happen? Not because I don’t believe it happened, I just want to see how someone could so blatantly lie about something that obviously wrong.
Maybe it’s because I’ve gotten more into Howard’s work lately, but it feels especially gross given both the tragic circumstances of his life, and the sheer amount of creativity Howard had in his writing that dwarfs anything Roy has come up with.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I’ve said that Thomas has ego issues that lead him down bad roads, but I didn’t anticipate him getting this ridiculous. Wow, does he need to get over himself.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I look forward to the day when RSMartin realizes that Lee equals Thomas plus a talent for deceiving people.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’d love to know where I’ve said anything all that complimentary of Stan Lee. His major achievement was in constructing a brand identity for Marvel, and that’s about marketing, not aesthetics. Kirby, Ditko, and the others did the heavy lifting in their collaborations with him, although Lee was responsible for the tone of the work as published. I’ve always been of the view that his claim to be the sole “writer” of the material to be overly aggrandizing, semantically slippery, and extremely disrespectful to the cartoonists he worked with. Although I do think he made more of a contribution to the 1960s material than Roy Thomas did to Wolverine.
I think my major sin is that I don’t tell Michael what Michael wants to hear. Examples: Do I think Kirby’s work for Marvel was legally work-made-for hire? Yes. Do I think the Kirby-Marvel legal dispute was about whether Kirby’s contributions were work-made-for-hire? Yes. Do I think the district and appellate court decisions that affirmed Kirby’s efforts were work-made-for-hire and denied his estate termination rights are what matter, and not the losing-side briefs that were filed? Yes, for the very good reason that the judicial rulings are what’s enforceable and what constitute precedent. Losing-side legal briefs are just words on paper.
If Michael can provide a link or links that contradict what I’ve written above, I’ll be glad to see them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I understand and can respect that view RS, but (and I’m sincerely asking and not challenging), don’t you think there’s an ethical/moral component to saying that Marvel was wrong in how they treated Kirby, regardless of what binding and archaic work-for-hire laws were?
LikeLike
RSMartin, you’re going to believe what you want to believe irrespective of the facts. I’m content not having convinced you, and you haven’t earned the right for me to hear anything you have to tell me.
LikeLiked by 1 person
FCS–
Sure, there’s an ethical/moral component to disapproving of Marvel’s conduct. The problem is that some people get so carried away with the moral-ethical aspects that they start falsifying history and the law and embracing all sorts of dubious things because it flatters their conscience. And frankly, a good deal of it is not as morally or ethically clear-cut as Marvel critics think.
There are matters where most people can get on board with the criticisms. The credit issue is one. Most people, when apprised of the facts, will probably agree that Lee’s conduct was wrong. Staffers and contractors stealing original art from the publisher for resale is another. Just because the statute of limitations has passed on the thefts doesn’t make them any less wrong.
After that, it gets dicier. Many people are of the view that employees and for-hire contractors are not entitled to residual and royalty income from their work unless they’ve negotiated a clear agreement for it. Marvel was not under any moral, ethical, or legal obligation to pay Kirby, Ditko, et al. anything beyond their page rates. I think it’s best for Marvel to pay back-end money, and I’m glad it was codified as company practice going forward beginning in the 1980s, but I don’t think Marvel was obligated to do so. The same is true with the return of work-made-for-hire original art from the pre-digital era. That artwork was bought-and-paid-for goods and publisher property. Many people are going to take the view the publishers should be able to do what they wanted to with it. If they chose to return it, great. Again, I think that’s for the best. But again, I don’t think they had an innate obligation to do so.
With the Kirby original-art situation, he put Marvel in a very difficult position. He sent demand letters that effectively claimed copyright ownership. (Claiming all they paid him for was one-time reproduction rights is a claim of copyright ownership. Gary Groth and so forth saying it wasn’t were just gaslighting people.) Those demand letters created the problem. Marvel predictably required him to back off those claims in writing before they would return his Silver Age originals. They didn’t want to give the claims in those demand letters any credence, particularly after Kirby and his wife began sounding off about filing termination notices on Marvel’s key publications. Again, I think many people, including myself, are going to think Marvel’s conduct was justified under the circumstances. I know many comics people think these are black-and-white issues, but they’re not. People can legitimately disagree about them.
Getting back to history and legal matters, I think it’s important to be very rigorous when talking about them. Comics people are too prone to getting off-base as it is. I try to do my part, such as with comment threads, and my own writing, such as the business history I wrote re: Steve Gerber and Marvel. You’re trying to do yours with this site, and I think you’re doing a pretty good job.
LikeLiked by 1 person
RSMartin, please do be “rigorous” when talking about “history and legal matters,” and stop making stuff up. Aside from the non-legally binding wording on the backs of cheques, Kirby signed away the copyrights in 1972. It was the first time (he had no “work for hire” contract, or any contract, before that); it was at a time when people believe Cadence took Lee to be the sole creator and didn’t see Kirby as a threat to those copyrights. Kirby didn’t put Marvel in a difficult position by threatening anything, and he never sued Marvel: he just requested the return of his art. Despite your feelings for Gary Groth, he was telling the truth and it’s you who is doing the gaslighting. Marvel was not paying taxes on the art, therefore it was the property of the artists. Lee et al were committing a crime in the ’60s and ’70s with their wholesale theft of the art.
LikeLike
Before 1978, ALL commissioned work is considered work-made-for-hire unless there is a clear agreement between the two parties that it isn’t.
Kirby didn’t have to sign anything. It was work-made-for-hire by dint of Marvel commissioning it. Any additional paperwork he signed was redundant. If you know lawyers, you know they like redundant. It helps to avoid expensive misunderstandings.
The key precedent is Yardley v. Houghton-Mifflin.
Yardley v. Houghton Mifflin Co., 108 F. 2d 28 – Circuit Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit 1939 – Google Scholar
Now, Michael, if you can contradict this with an actual federal appellate or Supreme Court ruling, please do. But please, don’t waste people’s time with losing-side legal briefs again. Those things are bullshit.
LikeLike
As for the rest of Michael’s comment:
How do you know what executives at Cadence thought? Have any of them made any kind of public statement that supports what you’re claiming?
Kirby’s threats to Marvel can be seen right from the mouths of him and his wife in the article that made the art-return impasse public in The Comics Journal #100. Marvel publisher Michael Hobson issued a public statement in 1986 that indicated that threats of that nature were why Marvel was not willing to permit return of the art to him at that time. Kirby signed a document that year reaffirming that he did the work in a for-hire capacity, which opened the door to Marvel letting him sign the standard art-return release and getting the pages in their possession back to him. Those documents were made public during the Kirby Heirs litigation.
Payment or non-payment of sales tax does not determine whether a sale has occurred. If you go to a hardware store and buy a hammer, and the store doesn’t charge sales tax, that does not mean the store still owns the hammer. No one at Marvel (or DC) has ever said taxes weren’t being paid on the art. It just wasn’t being collected through the artists. Any professionally-run media operation in those days as a rule paid the sales tax on commercial art via use taxes on their income tax filings. If sales tax or the equivalent was not being paid on those transactions, the state would have dunned the artists. There is not a single report to my knowledge of any Marvel or DC artist being dunned by New York tax authorities for failure to collect. By the way, Gary Groth knows this, because he and TCJ all but completely suppressed an interview Joe Sacco (of Palestine fame) conducted with a New York state tax official who discussed it all in detail. The interview transcript was made public during the Kirby Heirs litigations. Kirby lawyer Marc Toberoff included it in one of his document dumps.
When I say, “some people get so carried away with the moral-ethical aspects that they start falsifying history and the law and embracing all sorts of dubious things because it flatters their conscience,” I’m referring to people like you. I’m guessing that’s what hit a nerve.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ll add that the Kirbys did not dispute Michael Hobson’s explanation of Marvel’s actions. They dodged the question, and Gary Groth responded by changing the subject. I take that as confirmation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
No nerve, not a moral question, just the unvarnished truth; I’m confident in my research. The question is why you’re standing up for the company that was and is capable of great evil against its creators. And what did Gary Groth ever do to you? Carry on with your walls of bullshit but I’m going to disengage now before you get nasty.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Michael, there’s a question about how much time I want to spend responding to this. It’s like talking to a wall. You approach research the way Aaron Rodgers does, you have deeply erroneous views of the law, you don’t understand how the courts work, and you’re so high on your moral indignation that you’ve lost all perspective on what you’re talking about.
I am not defending Marvel’s business practices. I don’t think media companies should do business like that. All I am doing is insisting on an accurate portrayal of events and the legal situation.
As for Gary Groth, I was a regular contributor to The Comics Journal over a decade ago. That ended after repeated efforts on his part to short and outright stiff me on payment for my work. I’ve done freelance writing going back over 30 years. He is the only client I have ever had to threaten to sue to get paid. There’s a lot more besides, but that was the beginning of the hostility between us.
Finally, if you don’t like my responses to you, then don’t respond to me.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I know how this will sound to you both and I should like to stress I do *not* mean it in an instigative, exploitative way- but I really do think there is value to seeing you and M. Hill debate- I know you’ll both disagree, probably- but I mean, without getting pissed at each other- I always learn something from your exchanges. And I really am wary of the “let’s you and him fight” atmosphere (which some, like Waid, have accused FCS of trying to foster), and I yearn for more people disagreeing but trying to disagree by getting their points across without losing their temper. Not accusing either of you of doing that here btw- I recognize the disagreements go way back before this blog existed. Regardless, I appreciate discourse and appreciate both of your comments here.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Some constructive advice: Your articles are interesting but ALWAYS waaayyy tooo long. In this case, it seems you wanted to quote EVERY single person who ever agreed with you that Roy Thomas shouldn’t be asserting his new right to be considered a co-creator of Wolverine. I only count 12 people you’ve quoted (mostly at the start, thankfully) whom most longtime comic book fans like me would recognize. Less is more. Making a thought piece, I don’t know, 10 times longer than it has to be only dilutes your message.
LikeLike
Guy, thank you for the multiple comments of constructive criticism. And your attention to detail- I’m not being sarcastic; I appreciate that you took the time. However, I would be remiss if I didn’t clarify that, before the quotes even begin, I helpfully prefaced them with:
“you’ll find over one hundred comments from industry veterans, historians, journalists, and fans alike”
I also am not the only person covering this, so am not too concerned about diluting the message. As it is, literally thousands of people have viewed this article, hundreds have e-mailed it to other people based on the stats, and it keeps getting shared… as long as the seed of awareness is planted in people’s subconscious about this stuff that goes on, it will provoke them (I hope) to go look at other blogs, other books, other articles- but hey! I’ll do my best to improve.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Giffen and DeMatteis themselves couldn’t have invented better dialogue then “Precisely whom you’d expect to be hurling shark-shaped torpedos from a shark-inspired ship!”
Will, have caught up with the blog and really appreciate the research. We met at Rob Feldman’s booth in Baltimore a few years back if you remember and I enjoyed our chat.
I think it’s pretty darn lame that Roy’s fan club is trying to bully you. I noticed Bill Sienkiewicz deleted the thread this morning anyway, probably because they kept insisting on carrying on. You appeared pretty sturdy in person though so I don’t think you have much to worry about.
I’d like to send you a .pdf of my recent self-published comic if you don’t mind? Not a plug, just appreciate your two cents!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Scott! I do remember, I would remember anybody that knows their KITH 😉 Good to hear from you!
Those guys are all clowns, and I did not take it seriously as you probably expected. Hairspray Bolerjack quickly claimed boredom and stopped chiming in (mostly because he could never have a good counter-response to what I hit him with- that, if hooking up with John Cimino is your best career choice, it doesn’t say much), and it was some friend of Bolerjacks that looks like he’d have cardiac arrest if he had to run up a flight of stairs. If I’ve got a target on my back from those morons, I have a better chance of being killed in a hot air balloon accident before they’d be able to beat me up. I did feel bad that the continued tough guy antics sort of distracted from Bill’s original post since, unlike the Roy Boyzzz, I consider other people.
Please feel free to send me your stuff, anytime. I remember the print you showed me and my friends, and it looked fab. I always intend to review stuff besides dishonest Stan Lee biographies and so forth, I just haven’t gotten to it yet- there’s always more of Roy on the campaign trail to cover! 😀
LikeLike
I find myself in an unusual position. We got off on the wrong foot, which was completely my bad. I did try to apologize for that at the time. Unfortunately that didn’t appear to amount to much when I learned how you eviscerated me online. Anyway, although I’d be justified in disliking you for that, I’ve been reading up on your blogs and have seen a lot of your FB comments with regard to the topics you cover, as well as the responses and feedback. You’re doing good things. You have an impact – industry pros are reaching out to you. People that care about these topics are looking to you. Personally, I’ve learned a great deal after knowing almost nothing at all about the darker side of the industry. It almost feels like the growing groundswell of support might make a positive difference at some point. I’ve strangely developed an admiration and respect for what you are doing. I’m under no obligation to offer that, but I’m compelled to. It’s the truth. I did mean what I said once before; if we’ve ever in the same place at the same time, please introduce yourself. I’d enjoy sharing a coffee or drink or just a quick hello. And please keep doing what you’re doing. It’s needed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Chris, I didn’t eviscerate you. You contacted me out of the blue and are friends and associates with Mitch Hallock- the man who assisted John Cimino in gleefully harassing an elderly Mr. Ditko. I would hope you can see my point of view at the time, where I’d be a little suspect about you reaching out. I am regularly sent ridiculous comments from supporters of Cimino that range from declarations about Cimino taking over the convention industry someday to threats of violence from the collective Roy Boyzzz so please understand I felt a bit skeptical. My eviscerating is usually in response and reacting to what people say. I would never purposely insult someone or do anything for the sake of being cruel or petty or anything like that. Thank you for the comment if you’re being serious.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Will, with your description of why you reacted the way you did, I get it. I’ve moved past it. I don’t know anyone in the industry or have any influence or anything at all. I’m just about as ordinary as one can be. I am serious and I mean what I said. Carry on.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m surprised that Michael Hill managed to restrain himself from claiming that Stan Lee hired a local thug to hang around Kirby’s mailbox and steal his social security checks.
LikeLike