Everything I’m going to compile and cover in this entry has been helpfully researched and discussed by other historians and even the Klein photos (at least a couple of them) have appeared prior in some format, so it would behoove me, the most honest and fair-minded of muckrakers, to establish that at the offset.
Honestly, I didn’t intend to write a piece about this story- which is really a story about two specific conventions in 1968 and how they inform, establish and reiterate very serious claims about a convention the following year in 1969. Which, in itself, ties into the larger and long debated tale of original art and who-owns-what, theft, etc.- but essentially, I believe there is enough proof to establish beyond any reasonable doubt that what the late Bob Beerbohm claimed simply had to be true. Let’s look at a few different fragments that inform an overall case.
Bob Beerbohm stated that he purchased stolen artwork in St Louis in 1969 and that a young Marv Wolfman and Len Wein handled the transactions in a hotel room while a silent Roy Thomas sat by, watching on.
I should add that it has been suggested to me by a former DC/Marvel employee who wishes to not be named that these early incidents were less a case of the three being in cahoots and more a case of Thomas- then established in the fandom community as the Editorial right-hand man of Stan Lee- using two younger fans to do the shoveling for him. We’ll get to that as well.
I’ll be jumping back and forth between the 1968 con and the 1969 con simply for context, so be prepared to pay attention to the presentation as I’m liable to be pretty lucid. Stay with me, True Believers!
- “I don’t think they lose it. I think other people steal it.” – Neal Adams, June 1995
- “As fans, we all knew artwork was important, even if the professionals didn’t.” – Marv Wolfman, 1999
As far as I know, there is a frustrating lack of photographic evidence of the comics related component to the much-debated 1969 St Louis Convention where Beerbohm claims the transactions occurred. Thomas has long claimed he can’t remember if he was present or not but surviving con-related paraphernalia exists that clearly show he was present.
That being said, let’s focus on the prior year- 1968. The year of the 26th WorldCon, named BAYCON by organizers due to, I presume, being held in Berkeley, California. The coverage of Baycon firmly establishes enough facts that paint a rather damaging portrait and further the case that Roy Thomas was possibly and purposely reselling stolen originals.
After all, as Wolfman said, “As fans, we all knew artwork was important.” The comic fandom subculture was growing and Thomas, having come from fandom and being a prolific fanzine contributor, surely knew there was a burgeoning market for original artwork.
- “Bob Beerbohm claims to have bought Original Art Silver Age Marvel pages from Marv Wolfman and Len Wein at the 1969 World Con in St. Louis. THEY claimed they were saving the art from being thrown away. Marvel didn’t start returning art until 1974, and even then, that was primarily work done from that point on, though Kirby was able to get back a small percentage of his earlier work. So, what happened to all of that 60’s artwork?
- The thought process has always been: who had ACCESS to those 1000’s of pages that went missing during that time period and who could have gotten them into the hands of Marv and Len to sell? Come to find out Roy Thomas was at the same convention…” – Chuck Gower, 2021
Here’s my basic question for you: if Thomas wasn’t hawking stolen originals in 1969, then why do both he and Wolfman appear the previous year at an event that also has documented evidence that original art from Marvel appeared? It’s as simple as that and I await an answer from Thomas defenders.
I’d had my disagreements with Beerbohm, who often spoke about telling his stories in an always forthcoming book he was working on, Comic Book Store Wars. Unfortunately, Beerbohm succumbed to cancer before he was able to finish his memoirs; another reason I urge other historians like the talented JL Mast to not wait on a book deal if you’ve got the dirt. Have a sense of urgency. Just sayin’.
However, Beerbohm was prolific in reciting his experience on numerous platforms, and the facts of his story didn’t waiver…
- “We were specifically told then that Sunday morning that the art had been thrown out and they ‘saved’ it all.” – Bob Beerbohm, Nov 28th 2023
- “Roy Thomas was also in that 1969 St Louis World SF convention hotel room which then contained over 5,000+ pages from Marvel, DC, Warren. Roy sat in a corner quiet as a church mouse.” – Bob Beerbohm, Feb 10th, 2023
- “…it is literally impossible that Wein and Wolfman could have acquired Silver Age Marvel original art in any quantity let alone numerous complete stories without some person at Marvel supplying them. Even the Marvel employee who supplied the pages must have had approval at the highest levels of Marvel office management as it would not be possible to move such a huge number of pages without management being aware.” – Patrick Ford
- “Someone(s) drove all that bulk of original comic book art the 954 miles from New York City to Saint Louis, Missouri.” – Bob Beerbohm, Nov 10th, 2023
- “In the meantime, the art was stored, sometimes in the offices, sometimes in a warehouse. Some was lost in transit, and some was quite blatantly stolen. In 1969 and 1970, two Marvel staffers (let’s call them Irving and Forbush) showed up at a Saint Louis Convention with hundreds of pages of art for sale, including Kirby Fantastic Four pages from 1963. These sold for about $10-15 a page. I’ve heard a few explanations of their actions – mostly that this was 1970, and in a counter-culture sort of way, Irving and Forbush were pissed off about the corporation – but many people I talked to simply call what they did “stealing.” – ‘The Stolen Art’, by Glen Gold from The Jack Kirby Collector #19, April 1998
I will share something I was told by a former longtime industry veteran whose reluctance to be quoted publicly is due to ageism within the comics business (though this person is younger than Thomas and Wolfman), about an anecdote that a former DC Editor whose last name begins with “K” told him about the 1969 St Louis incident and other possible team-up deals that could have possibly happened.
Supposedly, the first few times that Wolfman and Wein assisted Thomas, they legitimately had no idea that they were dealing with anything stolen whatsoever and simply believed they were helping a slightly older comics professional who’d made it big. They were “not far from being out of their teens” and excited to be involved with “real comic stuff“- Wolfman especially was already an intern at DC and was contributing pieces about both of the ‘Big 2’ companies to publications like The Comic Reader and presumably thought this would make a good submission.
- “Basically, it was presented to them by the Marvel employee as ‘can you guys help me out with this? They just want to discard it, and Stan said I can sell it, but as an employee I can’t go through the rigmarole of publicly setting up at a vendor table.“ – former industry professional
I was also reminded that Wolfman especially has continued to sell original art into the present, some of it Silver Age Jack Kirby work.
Anyway, both Thomas and Wolfman have denied it, and both have claimed a spotty memory of the events which could reasonably be considered understandable. Their defenders have also made claims such as Wolfman wasn’t even a professional then, and so forth. As it is, Wolfman was already working at DC by 1968 and appeared at Baycon 1968 as both a representative of DC/National and the industry as a whole.
- “We have here… Marvin Wolfman… one of the new lights at National Periodical Publications… known to all a sundry for no good reason as “DC”… – Moderator Paul Moslander, 1968
Here is a recorded audio transcription of that panel, which also includes EC veteran Harry Harrison. This should hopefully end any claims of Wolfman not being present:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kBl7p_YdQ
Original Marvel Art at a 1968 convention- a convention that also has both Thomas and Wolfman. How can you explain it? Was it sold to ‘Collectors Corner, 206 Franklin Place‘ the night before? Or at a convention prior to this one? If it had mysterious appeared, would Thomas not have approached the vendor to ask how they obtained it?
- “In the early ’70s, only Roy Thomas, then as Editor In Chief at Marvel, insisted the ‘writer’ got a full third of all the pages to a story. Thomas got a good whiff of those extra dollars during St Louis World SF Convention 1969. The Marvel pages Steve Johnson and I bought were complete books X-Men #57, #58, #59, cover to X-Men #65 not even printed for another two months…” – Bob Beerbohm, Aug 14th, 2023
- “I’m hard pressed to blame DC and Marvel for the thefts caused by other people in the field. Some of them are my compatriots in the field. So, it’s difficult to point a finger at people. DC and Marvel have no vested interest in stealing it or doing anything with it now that they realize what the loss is. At least they’re neutral. The thieves aren’t neutral.” – Neal Adams, June 1995
One person that attended the 1968 show helpfully documented what they experienced in the fanzine Yancy Street Gazette. That person was Bob Gale, later of Back to the Future fame.
- “On the last three days of June 1968, the Gateway Comic Art Fan Club of St. Louis sponsored its second comics convention at the Ben Franklin Hotel in downtown St. Louis. All total during the weekend some 60 or 70 fans attended, not only from the St. Louis area, but also Florida, New York, and California. The walls were lined with original art…
- …Then, everyone adjourned to the dealers’ room where a party was thrown. At the height of the chattering, yelling, and screaming, who do you think walked in? Why, it was none other than the Con’s guest of honor, Rascally Roy Thomas! Roy entered and immediately attracted a growing circle of fans around who literally gave him the third degree, begging him to disclose top secret information concerning Marvel– but more on this later.
- …The lights were turned on, and people came back into the display room to MARVEL at the original art that Roy brought- need I say more?” – Bob Gale, ‘Gateway Con II’, 1968
Need I say more? The artwork in the Klein photographs clearly shows the vendor’s room, not the display room- those pieces are quite obviously being resold, they are not for display appearances.
So, the smoking gun in this case is this photographic evidence of several original Jack Kirby splash pages appearing at the same convention that Roy Thomas is the Guest of Honor and Marv Wolfman is a representative of the comics industry on a panel. Let me know what other conclusions one can possibly make from this.
Thomas and Wolfman had a conversation, transcribed in Alter Ego #2, in which their attitude of entitlement was clearly displayed. Which is fine- I sort of agree with salvaging Golden Age art if it were going to be put into a furnace- but to take such an attitude when the purpose was not to, say, return it to the artists but just to resell it- that’s just kind of shitty.
- “But they (DC) were allowing me to keep me cut-up stuff… they didn’t want me to keep everything, obviously. So, what I did was cut between the borders… very carefully, cut between the borders, so no artwork was ever damaged.. and I’d mark up what page it was… then, I would go home and I would tape them in the right order and reform the page…” – Marv Wolfman, 2017
Again: I would probably do the same exact thing if I were instructed to destroy original art- if the intent behind that command was simply because my employer didn’t want it- but I’d just try to return it to the artists. Believe it or don’t. We keep hearing fans and professionals say “no one cared! Nobody cared about the original art until later, when it became valuable!” Even if that were true, what logic is that?! The person that created it when you didn’t is suddenly greedy or something for wanting their now valuable work? …the fuck?!
Something interesting about this entire sordid saga is that certain figures at DC, including Wolfman, have suggested that it was Sixties DC Editor Jack Miller who stole anything from the DC Offices. Miller was a mild-mannered veteran who had also dabbled in writing scripts for animation and helped develop The Inferior Five.
Miller was fired in 1968 and passed away in 1970. Wolfman said in Alter Ego, that the guilty party was a DC Editor who “had cancer and needed money for health reasons who’d been taking the art (as well as) bound volumes and selling them to pay for chemo.“
Is that possible? Anything is possible. By the same token, a man in New York riddled with cancer who is getting chemotherapy treatments in the late Sixties does not seem inclined (to me) to travel to Missouri and California to sell original art. Please let me know if you disagree- I suppose if I were desperate to raise money for my treatment, I’d consider anything, but…
As loath as I am to speculate, I wonder if TwoMorrows– which is predicated on nostalgia, not factual history- did their best to nudge this narrative further so as to not presumably have to create any awkwardness between Thomas and Wolfman. In 2010, Carmine Infantino spoke about Miller in TwoMorrow’s ‘Carmine Infantino: Penciler, Publisher, Provocateur‘:
- “He was stealing stuff all over the place- artwork and books. I wasn’t totally fond of him. He showboated a lot. He was having an affair with his assistant. He used to go have lunch with her all the time, and he’d write these stupid romance stories. He held the department in his hat, you know what I mean? But he ran out of money, because he’d taken her to lunch and dinner, lunch and dinner. He didn’t make that kind of salary, so he had to steal…” – Carmine Infantino, 2010
That ‘assistant‘ was accomplished DC Editor and Writer Barbara Friedlander, who spoke upon these rumors in 2020:
- “Now, Jack did not drink. What Jack did with his money and his time is Jack’s business. I was not having an affair with him. Because Jack was married with two children, and I was friendly with his daughter too. Everyone is entitled to their assumptions… my husband and I visited him in the hospital in New Jersey where he was dying.” – Barbara Friedlander, 2020
- “I remember, Jack Miller used to write for the other side. And he could sit down and do his scripts so quickly and so accurately, it was amazing to me. And he had a background of being a playwright and he directed plays, so he was very focused. Very focused on what he had to do; knew how to hit all the right places. And he would hand in his script and he would go down the hall. Sometimes, he would come back and say, “That guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.” But he wrote a lot of stuff.
- I knew he was writing stuff, but I never knew he had created stuff. He was modest.” – Barbara Friedlander, 2020
- “He (Jack Miller) was accused of stealing stuff from the library and was fired, which I thought was pretty silly. The artwork routinely was stolen by everybody, including me! I got some Aquaman pages because I wanted them-they were going to shred them up! Len, Marv and Mark Hanerfeld built tremendous art collections by going into DC after school, working for free in production, and they’d pick up some artwork before they left. Artwork wasn’t returned to artists in those days-it was destroyed.” – Dick Giordano, Dec 1997
I found it interesting and mysterious that Editor Jack Miller was fired for stealing art when Giordano himself admits it was apparently a routine practice at the DC offices. And, as very little has been written about Miller, and most of the involved parties have all passed away… it seems unlikely to know too much more about the context of this. Could Miller have been terminated because National didn’t want to pay any of his medical bills? And then, doing research, I came across this very intriguing solicitation for a TwoMorrows magazine coming out next year…
Jon B. Cooke has announced a future issue (as of this writing) of Comic Book Creator coming in Winter 2025 (!!! jeez) that says “…with the help of former DC Comics’ romance editor Barbara Friedlander, we redeem the once sullied name of her mentor, the late, great DC editor Jack Miller, whose career was bought (sic) to an ignominious end by company management while he suffered a fatal malady.” Wow- that actually sounds very interesting, and Cooke, compromised as he is with TwoMorrows, has done some very good work in the past. It will be intriguing to see what that article reveals, but it does seem that perhaps Miller was unfairly maligned by an accusation that made his firing easier for certain people. I suppose we have to wait another seventeen months to find out. *note: two of you reached out to me to tell me Rob Imes was “outraged” that my math is bad and that ‘Winter 2025’ does not mean the end of the year in 2025 as I thought, but January 2025. (Why not put January 2025 th- okay, I’ve added that update and am still not ashamed of my misunderstanding, I’ve only claimed with absolute certainty that I can out-box John Cimino, not tutor anyone in algebra.)
As for Infantino’s motivation over his statement that Miller was having an affair with Friedlander, I was reminded of something Alan Kupperberg once told me:
- “You had to praise Carmine all the time for him to tolerate you, he was totally vain… he reminded me of Telly Savalas’ persona whenever I’d see him talking to some of the female staff… and if they didn’t act totally charmed in response, he could be pretty petty.” – Alan Kupperberg, March 2009
So, in the effort of fairness, we must also consider Jack Miller a suspect in the case of stolen artwork which made its way to St Louis, Missouri- Missouri incidentally being the home state of Roy Thomas, by the way- while he was battling cancer and dealing with chemotherapy treatments- chemotherapy being relatively new by medical standards in 1968- transporting piles and piles of large, oversized original art. Sounds possible!
- “Some editors at DC used to mail original art to readers who had letters printed in their comics… and wasn’t just those editors who announced on the pages that they were doing this. I had a couple of letters published in The Inferior Five, which was edited by Jack Miller and he sent me a couple of original pages from that comic without announcing it.
- And I didn’t have any letters published in Strange Adventures when it was featuring Deadman drawn by Neal Adams but Mr. Miller, shortly before he left DC, sent me a couple of those pages as a thank-you for a short correspondence we had and to apologize that he wouldn’t be able to give me a script assignment he said he was going to give me.” – Handsome Mark Evanier, Oct 10th, 2023
Many nostalgia-seeped fanboys have worked overtime to diminish and dilute the presence of Thomas at conventions he was advertised at, to downplay any notice of comic books in the admittedly sci-fi dominant convention(s), to mislead and misdirect proper discussion about despicable behavior by supposed professionals.
Some even suggest that Thomas- who claims he can’t recall- wasn’t even there. Several have pointed out that this is basically impossible.
- “They explained to us that day exactly how they pulled off the bulk of the thousands of DC art pages and covers. We bought many Neal Adams and Steve Ditko DC original art for complete books from $3 to $5 a page depending on the subject matter.
- I began asking- once again- just WHO would have had such easy access to ALL the Neal Adams/Tom Palmer X-Men original art pages? Including as of yet then unpublished Neal Adams/Tom Palmer X-Men #63 cover… written and edited by Roy Thomas.
- Who also is pre-registered along with his first wife Jean Thomas. So is Marvin Wolfman and Irene Vartinoff. And listed in pre-printed programming timeline guides for being on a comics panel along with Vaughn Bode and others.
- A supposed world class comics historian with an all of a sudden fuzzy memory… of a World Con held in his own home-grown town he went on to teach high school English in St Louis before coming to NYC in 1965 first for Mort, then Stan. Roy needs to stop his half-century plus hiding from 1969 St Louis.” – Bob Beerbohm, Nov 10th, 2022
- “I’m not going to dignify the charges made by this person by going into detail, and as I have previously given my opinions on the subject, I’ll leave it to you to find the story elsewhere if you care to know more. However, I have found this one detailed article from the ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH about this convention.
- Sadly, there is no real mention of comic books in this piece.” – Ken Quattro, Nov 3rd, 2022
There is one detailed article from the ST. Louis Post-Dispatch that, not surprisingly, does not give a comprehensive report of what was, again, admittedly and largely a science fiction convention. But that is a misdirection by Quattro, plain and simple. Why else would Thomas, who hadn’t even dabbled in sci fi fandom, be a guest of honor?
- “It would seem someone at Marvel who was close to Wein and Wolfman funneled the art through them. So why would this person at Marvel use a middle man rather than just sell the artwork himself ? I would say it is clearly because the person did want their identity to be known.” – Patrick Ford, 2020
- “WHY do you think Roy Thomas was such an adamant person in 1971 that “the writer” gets ONE THIRD of all the pages? Paul Levitz has pointedly mentioned DC always returned all the pages to the artists. The writers got their scripts back.
- Answer: He got a good taste of that 1969 St Louis money. $5,000+ x $5 = $25,000+ which in today’s buying power equals over $250,000. Think about that concept a bit.” – Bob Beerbohm, Jan 29th, 2023
Again, I would like to reiterate there is no real concrete proof that Thomas was connected to the sale of original artwork in that St Louis hotel. By the same token, there is no way Wolfman and Wein could have possibly obtained it on their own; also consider they were already friendly and familiar with Thomas from the fanzine days and Wolfman especially has stated in interviews that he frequently visited both publishers for news tidbits and other information so would have had ample time to visit and socialize with Thomas.
Otherwise, a man widely regarded as so firm in his belief system that he often clashed with people he was friendly with rather than compromise his stance just decided to make up a story when he had to know he was possibly not going to be around much longer. Does that seem realistic to you? Also consider that Beerbohm was known to have this original art and thereafter resold it; if his story is false, where could he have obtained it? DC Editor Jack Miller? Beerbohm sneaking into Marvel? It defies logic.
- “To be listed as an advance member in the WorldCon program book, you had to mail in your membership monies months in advance. This was well planned out.” – Bob Beerbohm, Feb 3rd, 2023
- “Roy Thomas, on the other hand, has LOTS to hide. He knows it. I know it. So do others. I know what I bought in that hotel room with partner Steve Johnson. How does one be able to buy Neal Adams X-Men art many months before it was printed? Who had easy access to many thousands of pages of art at Marvel, DC, Warren as well as a stack of Charlton Ditko pages?”– Bob Beerbohm, Oct 23rd, 2022
It’s entirely possible none of this is true and Beerbohm invented it. It’s entirely possible that Thomas never ventured outside of his own hotel room and that no transactions ever occurred. I’ll accept that- when someone gives us a reasonable explanation for how Kirby and Adams splash pages (among others) appear in Missouri in the late Sixties. Any takers?
- UPDATE AUG 4th, 2024: The great JOE FIORE got in touch to inform me of the following- these are excerpts, you can read his full message in the comments below the article: (images are courtesy of Joe Fiore)
“…sometime between 1972-72, Roy Thomas was quoted in the TCJ about essentially knowing the importance of this work, and that there was talk about selling it to build up a retirement fund. He concludes in that same article that it never went anywhere, we now have a better understanding of some of the reasons why.” – Joe Fiore
(note: Joe had misremembered the date, but here is an excerpt from that specific page of The Comics Journal featuring Thomas’s comments, courtesy of Michael Hill):
“Roy Thomas, Marvel’s editor-in-chief from 1972-1974, told the Journal that he recalled some “vague talk” about possibly selling the original art, and said that one idea was to sell the art to establish a retirement fund for the artists who drew it- but he added that the idea didn’t get very far.”
“It was professionally and personally repugnant to me to see a couple of other people sweet-talk Stan into giving them their originals back while the other guys’ work languished in a warehouse.”, Thomas said, adding that Lee was swayed by Morrow because Morrow argued successfully that he deserved the work because he both penciled and inked it, which was a relative rarity compared to the other Marvel artists.”– The Comics Journal #105, Feb 1986
I found Thomas’s comments especially interesting as it pertains to the accusations of his involvement in selling stolen art- if he has an exception to Gray Morrow arguing for his original art back due to the extremely logical justification that there is no other artist (inker) besides Morrow to conceivably have to share the pages with, what does that say?
That Thomas believed the writer(s) deserved the artist’s original art. Jim Shooter himself wrote that when he (Shooter) ended the return policy Thomas had implemented earlier, several writers came to his office angrily explaining that they made a healthy profit on regular sales of the shared Marvel artwork they had gotten used to receiving.
“The other is that Marvel had already entered into agreements to sell its art – one specifically was the Winnipeg Art Gallery. The artists were never informed of this transaction, and this all would later come to light when someone noticed this art and tweeted about it, and the WAG claimed to have returned it to Marvel to stave off controversy.” – Joe Fiore
“Despite this claim, it was alleged by several eyewitnesses that the art was still being exhibited after the WAG’s claims.” – Joe Fiore
Much gratitude and public thanks go to the many people who have researched this story years before I ever posted this- Michael Hill, Joe Fiore, Ferran Delgado, the late Bob Beerbohm, Patrick “Passive Aggressive” Ford (who disdains me as much as the Roy Thomas Appreciation Society does but I still respect his points), JL Mast, Jon B Cooke, Glen Gold, Chuck Gower, Kevin Greenlee, Daniel Greenberg, Jay Kay Klein, Ken Meyer Jr, Craig Dawson, and countless others.
Four Color Sinners 
Thank you for picking up the baton for Bob’s stolen art quest. It’s a story that needs to be told in full, and details will continue to come out whether the surviving participants like it or not.
That little detail about Jack Miller is as tragic as it is disgusting. It’s good that Barbara Friedlander is still around to set the record straight, and I hope Jon Cooke doesn’t pull any punches.
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I don’t deserve any thanks as several people have been reporting on it far longer than I have. I wish I could articulate better how many people have stayed on this. I really just wanted to compile something about it because I hadn’t previously seen any mention of the multiple references to Jack Miller as a means to provide an alibi for Wolfman, the fact that FCS is routinely getting thousands and thousands of views and shares per article, and that I now have someone who worked at DC and Marvel who is willing to provide me with some specific items that will strengthen the case I’m trying to make here. But I appreciate your support, Michael. And anyone reading this who HASN’T bought Michael’s excellent books on Kirby- the best books on Jack Kirby and his career, mind you- please rectify that immediately. They are available on Amazon.
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Some constructive advice: Your articles are interesting but ALWAYS waaayyy tooo long. In this case, it’s like a lawyer told you to do a disclaimer so Roy Thomas & others don’t sue you. There are quicker ways of making that qualifying statement without then having to once again reassert your belief, “However, I challenge anyone to tell me how…” to make sure your accusation is the main thing people remember above all else.
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Thank you for constructive criticism. I should like to clarify though that the possibility of being sued is never, ever, EVER a thought process here since all I do is literally present recorded statements and existing documents. I don’t know what you think someone’s life is like when they would literally have an attorney advising them on a comic blog they write on the side…! You’re right tho’, I can get pretty verbose. But sometimes, there’s a lot of context to cover.
Also notable that, as much as I reassert it, no one still has stepped up for “challenged to tell me how”.
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Guy, in this case, it’s like you wanted to subtly gauge my response to SEE if I had a lawyer telling me how to word things. :p
It’d be easy for someone with the time and money to sue someone else, absolutely. If these people have the time and inclination to go through the due process at a civil court and begin the much longer process to sue me over literally providing actual, documented quotes- often by the presumed suers in this case- more power to them. It also presumes that I myself am not financially capable of defending myself in the court of law. It’s nonsense and this sort of thinking stems from people with a television show’s idea of how the court system actually works. Roy Thomas has been litigious in the past (with people like Tony Isabella!), but I find it a stretch that he or anyone else would think that thread held any water.
Also, doing such a gesture gives the implication that I am somehow a threat, somehow dangerous, somehow influential- which I’m really not, but they also don’t want to give weight and bring attention to my work. Because of these reasons and more, I am woefully unconcerned with the possibility of a lawsuit. I did not word anything out of fear, I worded it properly and correctly because there REALLY ISN’T DIRECT EVIDENCE. But I do think the circumstantial evidence is worth considering, which is why I wrote this. I do think we can draw considerable conclusions from the people present at Baycon and the photographic proof of original Kirby splash pages. How that is open to being sued is beyond me and I at least studied law briefly if I never went all the way and tried for the bar exam. I want to honestly thank you though Guy, and I hope I don’t come off as at all offended by your criticism- I respect and appreciate your thoughts, and the fact that you’d take the time to share them. I just believe I should respond in full if I have something to say in return. Thanks again. (and I will try to summarize in the future)
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When I get to the end of the post I don’t find myself thinking, phew, I made it to the end, now I can post my comment. I’m usually eager for more. Also, doesn’t legal action mean DISCOVERY?
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I began this rabbit hole deep dive some years back. It began with the “open secret” of the “Trickerator” walking out with Marvel’s art, something Shooter had somehow let out of the bag, but in a guarded way on his blog. My motivations and reasons were simply to avoid tainted art that was never sold in a bonafide manner, but particularly, art that should have long ago been returned to Jack Kirby when he requested it, and Marvel held it to extort Kirby to sign a release contract no other artist at the time was asked to sign.
I wrote a multi-part series and only published on my FB timeline, nothing groundbreaking, and was essentially more of a recollection of past events with reciepts, to explain how Marvel’s art disappeared. It’s amazing what is known, and already out there, but just needs people like yourself to put together to string together compelling evidence. Anyhow, during that time I was researching for this series, there were a couple of things that stuck out to me, now that I juxtapose some of what you’ve written here to my own recollection. One is that sometime between 1972-72, Roy Thomas was quoted in the TCJ about essentially knowing the importance of this work, and that there was talk about selling it to build up a retirement fund. He concludes in that same article that it never went anywhere, we now have a better understanding of some of the reasons why. The other is that the term “important” doesn’t go far enough. We know that Sol Brodsky saw it important enough to have Irene Vartanoff do an audit, but then after the audit, she was quoted as saying something to the effect that the cost to insure the art was seen as possibly being something Marvel quickly talked themselves out of propery insuring. We have to remember, Marvel’s “Vault” was originally stored next to a match stick factory.
The other is that Marvel had already entered into agreements to sell it’s art – one specifically was the Winnipeg Art Gallery. The artists were never informed of this transaction, and this all would later come to light when someone noticed this art and tweeted about it, and the WAG claimed to have returned it to Marvel to stave off controversy. Despite this claim, it was alleged by several eyewitnesses that the art was still being exhibited after the WAG’s claims.
Last but not least, when Theakston demanded that Shooter contact the police when Marvel’s art was stolen from the “cafeteria” and Shooter wouldn’t because he didn’t have a list to work from, as an EIC, that was a lame excuse, and Vartanoff was quoted as saying, Sol had the list, he kept it in his office, and Sol never lost anything.
What I’ve long maintained is that Marvel a) knew this art was worth something, for Thomas to be talking about it being potentially a source of retirement funding leaves no question or doubt; b) Sol knew it had value, otherwise he wouldn’t have hired Vartanoff to do the audit; c) Somewhere between placing enough importance on it, and recognizing it’s value, there was a major slip-up on the advancement of insuring it. Why, we’ll never know, however if information emerges about enterprising pursuits by insiders to sell it, that might explain why they didn’t go the extra step to secure and guard it properly.
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Joe, I can’t begin to express my thanks for this comment- yeah, you just showed everyone how a REAL writer can compose a message (hope Guy Aoki read this), and I appreciate your work on this (though I had never seen the posts on your timeline, but I have rectified my public thanks on the article by including your name). I now need to find that TCJ comment about the “retirement fund” and I think that backs up the observation Bob had about Thomas instituting the policy at Marvel that the WRITER get one third of the original art- when professionals try to deflect by saying “nobody cared!”- they fail to consider that people in the FANDOM community did, which is why the title of this article is a quote from Marv Wolfman.
In the fanzine community, original art was a badge of status when an editor had sent a page to a letterhack for example. Thomas would have to be the source for obtaining the original artwork, there’s simply no other way both due to his position within the company and his background as a longtime comic obsessive and collector. And Wolfman has never tried to hide the fact that he continues to make a profit off of original art. It shouldn’t be up to me to keep pressing the case, quite honestly, it should come from within the actual comics industry- but the majority of said industry is compromised due to politics and fear of alienating potential contacts. So, nothing really changes.
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My apologies, the year range should have read 1972-1974 (if there is any way to edit my comment, I’d appreciate having that fixed), and the WAG letter was dated 1973 (posted it in the Marvel Method FB group), along with the 1972 list sent to WAG which initially intended to “loan”, but Marvel decided to sell to WAG instead.
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Hey Joe, yes due to Cimino and his toadies frequently commenting about how poorly Four Color Sinners and how I just can’t stand that “everyone else” knows that Roy Thomas is the reigning king of comics, I made it so that people who had never posted before would have to be approved. I don’t think I can edit anyone else’s comment if it’s been posted but I’ll try.
THANK YOU for taking the time to share this. Thousands of people are reading my insane attempts to consolidate all the facts, so the more they see, the better the case against is.
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Regarding the posts on my timeline, they were up as friends-only being able to see.
I changed them to public after reading your comment, think of it more as a compendium and back-up of my own claims made above.
Being brutally honest, I would only keep them up for 24 hrs at most, so have a them. Educating people on this topic exposes raw nerves, and after a self-professed “art dealer” took me to task for “descrating Kane’s” legacy, it should give you some indication as to why I choose an avoidance approach to the cowards and profiteers.
I also don’t have time for people who do nothing except pick apart people’s work, while never showing any effort to participate or contribute to the discussion in a manner that advances the dialogue or awareness.
If I’m keeping it behind my FB-friend only, it’s for the above reasons. Also, my comments here, in case the legalese police feel like graduating to adhoc grammer cops, were posted on an early Sunday morning before I had my coffee – be kind 😉
January 19, 2019
https://bit.ly/3A9wtP7
January 20, 2019
https://bit.ly/4ftzbiJ
January 21, 2019
https://bit.ly/3AbriOM
January 22, 2019
https://bit.ly/4dadSkv
January 23, 2019
https://bit.ly/3AjpfYO
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Joe, I’ve since updated the post to include your contributions- I guess I should have asked you first so please let me know if you’re cool with it.
And yes, don’t worry- I’m an old hat now at the response and pushback. The thing these people don’t realize is that I will see them at a convention eventually and knock the shit out of them. It is amazing to me, in this day and age, that grown men will take the time to literally send me threats (veiled and direct) of physical violence over blogs and comments about Roy fuckin’ Thomas. Ridiculous.
They can’t genuinely argue any points about blatant misdeeds and LITERAL QUOTES so I guess escalating it is the only thing they can think of.
Thank you again Joe.
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In 1982, Sol Brodsky’s responsibilities were being taken over by Michael Hobson. The company also moved to new offices during that time. The Irene Vartanoff list was most likely lost in the shuffle. Vartanoff wqs not working for Marvel at that point.
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RSMARTIN: “In 1982, Sol Brodsky’s responsibilities were being taken over by Michael Hobson. The company also moved to new offices during that time. The Irene Vartanoff list was most likely lost in the shuffle. Vartanoff wqs not working for Marvel at that point.“
It’s safe to say that every single part of this is false. According to multiple sources, Michael Hobson was hired in 1981 to replace Stan Lee, not Sol Brodsky. Sol Brodsky was still in his role at Marvel into 1983, well after the move to the new offices, which happened in April 1982. Sol Brodsky is shown in his new office at the new Marvel address in Bob Camp’s cartoon diagram of the Marvel offices that was published in 1983, and Ron Fontes, who wasn’t hired at Marvel until Aug. 1982, has confirmed that he worked for Sol for the first portion of his time at Marvel.
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Kevon–
One, please stop stalking me across this website’s comment threads.
Two, you need to improve your command of the English language. Most of your complaint could have been avoided if you knew the difference between the past absolute and past imperfect verb tenses. Apart from that, learn the meaning of the word “all,” so you don’t rhetorically misapply it going forward.
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Excuse me, learn the meaning of “every single part.”
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RSMartin, correcting your misinformation is not stalking you. You apparently want to present yourself as some kind of expert on comics and comics history, but you smugly spread misinformation, and instead of acknowledging your errors when you’re called out you hide behind pedantic douchbaggery.
Let me ask you, if the Vartanoff inventory was lost in the 1982 move, how was it published in TCJ in 1986? If Hobson took over Brodsky’s duties starting in 1982, why does Marvel claim Hobson was hired to replace Stan Lee as publisher in 1981? Why did Sol continue in his usual role into 1983? Remember, Sol Brodsky is the one who had the inventory. Why do the people who were working for Brodsky in 1983 claim that John Romita, Sr. took over Sol’s responsibilities?
I don’t know why you’re on a crusade to absolve anyone at Marvel of the responsibility of boxes of 1960s Marvel art during the office move in April 1982. Who are you trying to cover for, and why is that your mission? Regardless, the fact remains that the inventory of art was at Marvel through 1982 and into 1983. In addition, there would have been inventory made by the movers, which would clearly have told Marvel how many boxes that should have gone to the Astoria storage facility ended up being diverted.
RSMartin – please stop spouting off about things that you don’t have a clue about.
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Great work, and love the last comment especially. Not sure why the platform asked me to login to like, but just know I would double-like all of it even though my like-ninja skills were slightly off this morning 🙂
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And for the purpose of being concise, the original quote mentioning the retirement fund was from Feb 1986 article in the TCJ (thanks Michael Hill), I made the mistake of using the date range of his tenure as EIC. I am unable to make the correction on the original comment, so I thought I’d make it here. Thanks again!
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I have now been in touch with Barbara Friedlander so am interested to see what else I can find out about Jack Miller. Who, again, has been cited by Wolfman and Infantino as the person blamed for stealing original DC art.
To which I again ask people to consider the premise of a sixty-year-old man suffering from severe Cancer and receiving chemotherapy treatments (when chemotherapy wasn’t even a decade old) then hauling all of that artwork from NYC to St Louis, a place where, coincidentally, Roy Thomas and Marv Wolfman also happened to be at. Yeah. Consider it.
If nothing else, Miller could have carpooled with them.
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had never heard that about jack miller from dc… i wonder why Marv never talks about this or explains how he would have silver age Kirby work to sell. also Roys manager is a putz
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The following might be of use for the timeline you’re assembling: a few years ago “Alter Ego” magazine published several letters from comic-book artist Pete Morisi to a fan named Glen D. Johnson. In a letter dated October 27, 1969 Morisi wrote:
‘Just returned from lunch with Dick [Giordano], and figure I’d better write to you while things are fresh in my mind. As for getting more originals, (you asked about Wrightson), that’s out. Dick told me that National hired a couple of “fans” to do office work — and that’s when originals started disappearing, even before National gave the OK for their release. So, as a result, no originals will be given away. Dick was sorry about the mess and mentioned most of the originals wound up at conventions — with a price tag attached.”
(The letter can be seen in “Alter Ego” #164 [May 2020], page 70. That same issue also reprints a 1968 letter in which Morisi mentions that Charlton’s policy regarding original art was to destroy it “after a certain time period”.)
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Rodrigo, thank you- I actually *remember* this! Wasn’t that an ongoing backup column, “The PAM Papers” or something or other…? I boycotted Alter Ego a few years back, but I remember one or two installments of that and didn’t see that one I don’t think. I vaguely recall a sketch included with the article of a character Morisi had done called “Boomerang”, if I’m not mistaken. I think this is very significant as Morisi only worked at Charlton primarily and wouldn’t have had much reason to invent such a thing. It also makes any art theft at DC center around the “fans” hired and not Wolfman’s claim that it was Jack Miller.
Thanks so much again for sharing this, everything adds to the overall timeline.
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Block this comment if you want but you can’t block the truth lol… You have A hardon for Roy, plain and simple… Even the haters supporting these bs writings have a hardon too because it’s been the cool kid thing to do with comic snobs to hate on Stan and Roy and build up Kirby and it’s obvious dude.
Roy was Stans protege literally and Stan groomed him to be the guide of the marvel universe… FACT. Roy laid down the BLUEPRINT of the MCU… FACT.
Roy and Stan had a relationship that was special and they are the two architect of the Marvel world as everybody knows it for 50 years and the sad truth is that Kirby’s career and life was saved by STAN. Also fact
You never write in yr scandal sheet how Kirby had no other choices and couldn’t write. How Stan made sure he had work to feed his kids etc. when Kirby came back to Marvel in 70s as a HYPOCRITE btw Roy tried to also help him succeed. Guess what… Kirby thought he knew better than Roy and his books FAILED… FACT.
Delete it all u want dude, the truth hurts. But yes a big talker online lmao. U really don’t want to show up at ANY show and disrespect Stan and Roy like u do. It won’t be Roy’s team u gotta worry about just a tip. The community won’t have that hate against the giants of Marvel. Make wiser choices bro for ur sake
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“Roy was Stans protege literally and Stan groomed him to be the guide of the marvel universe… FACT.”
– Not entirely true. Stan hired Roy due to familiarity with Roy’s work in fanzines (where Roy endlessly praised Stan Lee), and Roy had some work for Charlton and DC which made him better than a guy with zero experience in the industry at all. When he hired Roy he was absolutely not thinking of an “heir” at all, but someone to make his life easier- and, since Wally Wood, Kirby, Ditko, all PUSHED BACK against Stan, a fawning fanboy like Roy Thomas was a much better option for Stan.
“Roy and Stan had a relationship that was special…”
– Not true at all. This is certainly Roy and Cimino’s modern RETELLING of the history. Stan did nothing to help Roy when Roy wanted to leave in 1980 and Roy spoke about how he couldn’t get work at Stan Lee Media. Stan got Roy to ghost-write the Spider-Man strip and didn’t give him a raise for basically two decades. Roy wrote about how, the last few years of Stan’s life, he kept trying to get in touch and couldn’t connect to Stan. If Stan really cared so much, would he not have made clear his desire to see Roy Thomas? No, this is MARKETING, 100% for uneducated and nostalgic fans on the CONVENTION CIRCUIT, which Cimino knows well. Unfortunately for him, I also know it well.
“Roy laid down the BLUEPRINT of the MCU… FACT.”
– No, Jack Kirby laid down the blueprint… fact. Roy Thomas borrowed heavily from pre-existing stories and mostly worked in fan-fic like attempts to connect old continuity from his childhood. Everything he ever “created” was borrowed, lifted, and not-so-heavily shifted.
Kirby “couldn’t write” is subjective and your opinion. And you’re an idiot, so your opinion is already flawed.
“But yes a big talker online lmao. U really don’t want to show up at ANY show and disrespect Stan and Roy like u do.”
– I am twice as worse in person, count on it. Max Anderson got in a visible panic when he started his yelling bullshit and I confronted him and asked him to look around the room and ask himself, what true believer there would pull me off of him? He stammered and backed away and tried to get ReedPop staff to evict me from the room. They all hated him and said “we don’t work for you Max” and he was a terrified bitch, threatening to get me banned. I saw him at Wizard World Philadelphia and he was visibly nervous and told security to keep me away from him. If I’ll tell Max that I’ll break his neck, why would I hesitate to react to bullies like Cimino, who never apologized for ambushing Steve Ditko?
“The community won’t have that hate against the giants of Marvel.”
– Learn to read the room. Roy’s legacy is forever- FOREVER- tarnished. The community is disappointed and disgusted by Roy. Guess his “manager/best friend/sidekick” really did him good, eh??
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So how does THIS Marvel stuff stack up with the National theft a few years later, which was carefully chronicled at the time …
https://www.tedagame.com/zak-site/MarvelMethodArchive/24.html
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Somehow I was unaware of this National/DC theft. It doesn’t have much similarity to the events documented here, but it is EXTREMELY similar to the 1982 theft of several boxes of art when Marvel moved their offices. It makes me wonder, given how many staffers moved back and forth between the companies, if any of the same people were involved.
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What a CROCK. Why don’t you write about Kingsly Kirby’s LIE-soaked interview with Groth from the nineties? Oh you wont touch that? Didnt think so.
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Has anyone broached this with Marv himself? Intriguing…
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A comparitively-minor anecdote:
Right when she switched over from regular DC to their more adult line, editor Karen Berger MAILED OUT pages of original art to fans who had letters printed. That’s how I wound up with 2 Keith Giffen original pages of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES. They weren’t the greatest, but it was a kick, anyway.
Later, when I bought 3 limited edition HARDBOUND books that had been self-published after being turned down by Fantagraphics / Eros, John Blackburn included a couple of pages of his own ORIGINAL ART from COLEY stories. Wow, that was a thrill!
And, at some other point… the day I met Flint Henry at a tiny convention on the outskirts of Philadelphia, I BOUGHT the only piece of original comics art I ever paid for– a page of his GRIMJACK art. It meant a LOT to me, as it featured the sorceress he modelled on CHER. He also told me I was probably is “number one fan”. That means a lot more coming from a creator, than from a fan!
Maybe 2 years back, someone at Fantagraphics e-mailed me, asking if I knew how to contact someone in John Blackburn‘s estate. It seems they were hoping to reprint his work, and wanted to get in touch about it. I’d written a eulogy when Blackburn passed away, and I believe someone from his family got in touch with me at the time. But, maddenningly, for the life of me, I could NOT find any evidence of it, or their name or address. I felt really bad about that.
Especially as I was then in the process of COLORING those early COLEY stories that Fantagraphics / Eros had never published. I still hope they’re able to find the person they’re looking for, because, my goodness, if they ever DO reprint his work, I’d love to be the one COLORING the pages. I’d already finished the first 2 small books, COLEY ON VOODOO ISLAND and WILD IN THE STREETS, and I had started in on his epic BREATHLESS… but the first 20 pages of coloring got LOST when my previous computer hard drive crashed TWICE in 2 weeks. Still, the work can always be redone… no matter how much I hate doing any job twice. (I still have to buy a new computer so that I can get back on doing art at all. But first, I have a big MASONRY job to get started in the back yard. At least I’m WRITING pretty steady these days!)
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I was just going back through this post, trying to sort out how long a very-ill Jack Miller lived after St. Louiscon occurred, and realized you’ve documented three different conventions, not two!
Baycon (World SF Con 26) Berkeley, CA Aug. 29-Sept. 2, 1968
GateWay Con II (Gateway Comic Art Fan Club) St. Louis, MO June 28-30, 1969
St. Louiscon (World SF Con 27) St. Louis, MO Aug. 28-Sept. 1, 1969
So there were two conventions in St. Louis in 1969, the first a Comics oriented convention in mid-summer, with Roy Thomas as guest of honor and original art to be displayed and given away, and the second a Science Fiction oriented convention with comic book art and panels (the Khorassan Room panel was part of this convention). Roy was at all three, and all three are documented as having original comic art displayed.
I can’t find any records aside from the ad posted here re: Gateway II Con, so I have no idea if MW or LW were also there. Gateway I Con happened in 1966, and it would be nice to know if Roy was at that one, too. There might be something about these cons in early issues of On The Drawing Board, but my searches come up empty, and I can’t find where anyone has posted the convention programs.
You also posted a portion of the OA discussion in Alter Ego V3 #2, but left off some interesting discussion. [https://twomorrows.com/alterego/articles/02wolfman.html]:
Wolfman, during a DC offices tour around 1965, got a huge stack of original art that dated back to 1942! He got so much art that visit that he needed to take a cab home! This decisively falsifies the idea that National/DC routinely destroyed all art as soon as it was published. Then, two years later, while an ‘intern’ at DC, Marv managed to spirit out another 500 pages of art. He was tasked with cutting that art up, but he was allowed to take some home, and many pages he took were whole. Some of the art he got in then (1967) were from as early as 1961, and included complete stories. Again giving the lie to the idea that DC art was destroyed as soon as it was published.
So the DC writer/editor who was suggesting Marv and Len were kind of duped into helping Roy was perhaps giving at least Marv a pass. Marv Wolfman has been a voracious OA grabber since his teen years.
Oh, and Jack Miller died after a long illness with cancer in January 1960, four months after the St. Louiscon that featured stacks of stolen art. It’s a physical impossibility that a 60 year old guy, dying from cancer and being treated with 1960s chemo, could have climbed out of his hospital bed and schlepped stacks of art across the country. Of course you’ve amply refuted this, but I was curious how long after that convention it was that Mr. Miller died. I thought if he died in, say, December 1970, there was at least a tiny physical possibility, but no, it was not possible.
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The Khorassan Ballroom was/is located in the Chase-Park Plaza Hotel (which was also the site of the long-running TV program “Wrestling at the Chase”), not the Ben Franklin (which was actually a “motor hotel”). So I suppose the conventions were held in two different places. I was only 10/11 at the time, so I wouldn’t have known. Interesting reading!
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